I considered it an unspoken assumption that we weren't planning on making bad moves. There is nothing about sente or gote that makes a move good or bad. But I agree a bad move does not become good just because it is sente. I usually forgo giving advice along the lines of "Don't make a bad move." under the assumption that it should be an entirely obvious statement.Uberdude wrote:NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thunkd wrote: You seem to be asking when is it okay to not make a sente move and instead make a gote move. But if you really have a sente move... why would you not play it? If it is truly sente then your opponent will respond.
Loads of bad moves are sente. There is nothing inherently good about sente. Good moves are good, good moves in sente are even better. Bad moves are bad, bad moves in sente are just as bad (or maybe even worse as if you like playing bad sentes then after your bad sente it is your turn again to make another bad move).
How to focus on Sente/Gote?
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Thunkd
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
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often
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
If you think your group is fine, play elsewhere.
If you think your group isn't fine, make it safe.
Play like that and don't worry about sente or gote.
If you think your group isn't fine, make it safe.
Play like that and don't worry about sente or gote.
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Uberdude
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
That's my plan, but unfortunately not my practice.Thunkd wrote: I considered it an unspoken assumption that we weren't planning on making bad moves.
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billywoods
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
So your advice is "always play sente moves when they're available as long as good moves to play"? I think I could be forgiven for thinking that was entirely obvious (and equally unhelpful) too.Thunkd wrote:I usually forgo giving advice along the lines of "Don't make a bad move." under the assumption that it should be an entirely obvious statement.
The discussion in this thread is on which sente moves are good moves to play, and which are bad. It is a surprisingly subtle question.-
Thunkd
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
Yes. My advice was that if you have a (good) sente move that you should make it, but then I went on to discuss that it's sometimes hard to determine which moves are truly sente and that it requires evaluating what happens if your opponent ignores your move and how effective your followup mmove is.billywoods wrote:So your advice is "always play sente moves when they're available as long as good moves to play"? I think I could be forgiven for thinking that was entirely obvious (and equally unhelpful) too.
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hyperpape
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
I can't tell if you're being really unclear, or if you're confused. A move can be absolutely sente, something that your opponent must respond to, something that (locally) gains points, but still bad because you should hold off on playing sente.
Once you say "this is sente, and my opponent must respond", there's still questions of whether or not to play it.
Once you say "this is sente, and my opponent must respond", there's still questions of whether or not to play it.
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Thunkd
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
I must be confused. So if we agree that move would be a good move... and that it would be sente... why would it be bad because I "should hold off on playing sente"? I don't understand that statement.hyperpape wrote:I can't tell if you're being really unclear, or if you're confused. A move can be absolutely sente, something that your opponent must respond to, something that (locally) gains points, but still bad because you should hold off on playing sente.
When I consider moves, first I evaluate if it would be a good move or not... if it is not a good move I reject it and start over. After I've determined if it is a good move, I see if it is sente. If it is not I try to find another good move that is sente. I cannot imagine a situation where I would look at a move and decide whether it was sente before I tried to determine if it was a good move. If it is a bad move, I'm not going to play it, regardless of whether it is sente or not. Do other people do this?hyperpape wrote:Once you say "this is sente, and my opponent must respond", there's still questions of whether or not to play it.
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oren
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
Ko threats and aji. You should only play it when the value of the sente move makes it worth playing. Playing one point sente moves early on in the game may hurt you later.Thunkd wrote: I must be confused. So if we agree that move would be a good move... and that it would be sente... why would it be bad because I "should hold off on playing sente"? I don't understand that statement.
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Thunkd
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
Duly noted. If the move destroyed aji I'm not sure I would still consider it a good move, depending on the situation.oren wrote:Ko threats and aji. You should only play it when the value of the sente move makes it worth playing. Playing one point sente moves early on in the game may hurt you later.Thunkd wrote: I must be confused. So if we agree that move would be a good move... and that it would be sente... why would it be bad because I "should hold off on playing sente"? I don't understand that statement.
Usually I would not play a 1 point move unless there was no bigger move on the board.
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Uberdude
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
I think everyone above 29 kyu can understand that this 
is a bad sente move, seeing as white can escape from the ladder:
It is better to play the gote move of escaping from the ladder black is playing that doesn't actually work:
Now you might think this is a trivial, facetious example, and to some degree it is. But I'm trying to make a point.
Next consider this move, another bad sente, peeping where you can cut. Now this is a pretty obvious cutting point (particularly given the preceding moves) so maybe 20(?) kyus and above would never play such an awful move.
This is another bad sente move (it makes a much less interesting, not to mention wasting ko threats and liberties), but I've even see single digit kyus play it.
And here is a bad sente that a 3/4 dan (me) played, as it destroyed some very powerful aji I had in the corner (see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 04#p129304).
Now you might dismiss the first bad sente in a ladder example as a trivial stupidity, but perhaps to a pro who can see that corner aji at a glance my 4 dan bad sente above is almost as stupid. As you get stronger, what counts as a stupid sente (a.k.a thank you move) gets broader. Beware of sente!
is a bad sente move, seeing as white can escape from the ladder:It is better to play the gote move of escaping from the ladder black is playing that doesn't actually work:
Now you might think this is a trivial, facetious example, and to some degree it is. But I'm trying to make a point.
Next consider this move, another bad sente, peeping where you can cut. Now this is a pretty obvious cutting point (particularly given the preceding moves) so maybe 20(?) kyus and above would never play such an awful move.
This is another bad sente move (it makes a much less interesting, not to mention wasting ko threats and liberties), but I've even see single digit kyus play it.
And here is a bad sente that a 3/4 dan (me) played, as it destroyed some very powerful aji I had in the corner (see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 04#p129304).
Now you might dismiss the first bad sente in a ladder example as a trivial stupidity, but perhaps to a pro who can see that corner aji at a glance my 4 dan bad sente above is almost as stupid. As you get stronger, what counts as a stupid sente (a.k.a thank you move) gets broader. Beware of sente!
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jts
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
Thunkd, you may also be missing something that Uberdude's examples don't emphasize: if a move is your sente, it is your privilege to play it or not. Once the move becomes globally sente, then you can throw it in at any point and expect your opponent to answer. If you have a 1 pt sente that threatens to kill a group, that is your sente at 
, and it will still be your sente at :b251: . If your opponent plays it while there are 6pt gote still on the board... great! He just lost 2 points. If your opponent plays it while there are 2 pt gote left... whatever! Your opponent didn't net any points, and he might even have lost one.
This is why we say "sente gains nothing". You expect both sides to get all their sente moves. You can only get ahead by playing gote moves, or taking the other guy's sente moves away from him. A sente move is like a check in your wallet.
And that check is worth 1 point in sente whether you cash it now or in 200 moves, so if at any point it turns out you wish you hadn't played it or had waited to play it, that's a pure loss.
PS - this is a way in which sente moves are different from forcing moves. A forcing move is only sente so long as it threatens to do something your opponent wants to prevent (like, preventing your group from living) - once you've done that, those moves aren't sente and your opponent will not respond.
, and it will still be your sente at :b251: . If your opponent plays it while there are 6pt gote still on the board... great! He just lost 2 points. If your opponent plays it while there are 2 pt gote left... whatever! Your opponent didn't net any points, and he might even have lost one.This is why we say "sente gains nothing". You expect both sides to get all their sente moves. You can only get ahead by playing gote moves, or taking the other guy's sente moves away from him. A sente move is like a check in your wallet.
And that check is worth 1 point in sente whether you cash it now or in 200 moves, so if at any point it turns out you wish you hadn't played it or had waited to play it, that's a pure loss.
PS - this is a way in which sente moves are different from forcing moves. A forcing move is only sente so long as it threatens to do something your opponent wants to prevent (like, preventing your group from living) - once you've done that, those moves aren't sente and your opponent will not respond.
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jts
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
An example.
From W96, M9 is W's sente. He waits 70 moves and plays it as a ko threat. Black needs to find another threat, and chooses one which loses a point. White wins by 0.5.
From W96, M9 is W's sente. He waits 70 moves and plays it as a ko threat. Black needs to find another threat, and chooses one which loses a point. White wins by 0.5.
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Thunkd
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
This is a difficult concept for me. Looking at the example I think maybe I see why I'm not getting it. The example you posted is a type of situation that I rarely encounter (or at least notice) where one player has a sente move and the other player has no incentive to play in the area other than preventing that sente move. Usually when I'm dealing with sente moves both players have a move which would be sente in the area. So it's a situation where if you play elsewhere your opponent will likely play here first taking their sente move.jts wrote:This is why we say "sente gains nothing". You expect both sides to get all their sente moves. You can only get ahead by playing gote moves, or taking the other guy's sente moves away from him. A sente move is like a check in your wallet.
The subclass of moves that are "sente for me but relatively uninteresting for my opponent" just isn't something that happens often for me. But having looked at your example, I certainly agree... playing that type of sente move just because you can seems like a mistake. It is a great ko threat and your opponent will almost certainly not make the move as there are much bigger things to do elsewhere. So there is no reason you need to make this move now and reasons why it might be useful to have later on.
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skydyr
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
Well, a gote move is worth playing when it gains at least twice as much as your biggest sente move on the board, generally speaking. That means that if you have a sente move that's a lot less valuable than the biggest move on the board, even if it's sente, your opponent shouldn't take gote to prevent that small value, they should take the biggest move. Assuming your level is 9k or so as your profile suggests, you are probably at the point where you will see people still play those small gote moves, and you can punish them by taking the big move they ignored for that small move. This means that you can hold off on those sente edge plays until they're near the value of whatever big middle game fight is going on, which means that the middle game is likely mostly done. Then, assuming your opponent played correctly, the sente move is still there for you to make, and it was in reserve as a ko threat before.Thunkd wrote:This is a difficult concept for me. Looking at the example I think maybe I see why I'm not getting it. The example you posted is a type of situation that I rarely encounter (or at least notice) where one player has a sente move and the other player has no incentive to play in the area other than preventing that sente move. Usually when I'm dealing with sente moves both players have a move which would be sente in the area. So it's a situation where if you play elsewhere your opponent will likely play here first taking their sente move.jts wrote:This is why we say "sente gains nothing". You expect both sides to get all their sente moves. You can only get ahead by playing gote moves, or taking the other guy's sente moves away from him. A sente move is like a check in your wallet.
Because of this, that sente move can be played at anytime up to a certain point in the game, and that means you can count it as yours. It's only when your opponent takes gote to prevent it that you don't get the points. This means that the opponent's gote move gained them points, whereas your sente move was playing out something you already had.
When there are double-sente moves, moves that are sente for both sides, those are immediately big and should be played fairly early. How big they are is really a function of the threats they make, so as soon as bigger threats have died down, you should play them immediately. That said, you also need to ensure that you aren't confusing a gote move that has a sente followup with a sente move and immediately defending, because the followup is only the value of the gain in sente.
Hopefully this makes more sense?
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Bill Spight
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Re: How to focus on Sente/Gote?
Such moves are called "double sente" and are rare, as they depend upon the whole board. If you usually encounter such moves, that is probably an illusion.Thunkd wrote:This is a difficult concept for me. Looking at the example I think maybe I see why I'm not getting it. The example you posted is a type of situation that I rarely encounter (or at least notice) where one player has a sente move and the other player has no incentive to play in the area other than preventing that sente move. Usually when I'm dealing with sente moves both players have a move which would be sente in the area. So it's a situation where if you play elsewhere your opponent will likely play here first taking their sente move.jts wrote:This is why we say "sente gains nothing". You expect both sides to get all their sente moves. You can only get ahead by playing gote moves, or taking the other guy's sente moves away from him. A sente move is like a check in your wallet.
Actually, they are common. I don't know about the "uninteresting" part, but they are reverse sente for your opponent.The subclass of moves that are "sente for me but relatively uninteresting for my opponent" just isn't something that happens often for me.
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.