I'm a beginner at Go and want to play as many games as possible in order to improve. But should these games be against higher level opponents, or can/should I play against beginners like myself? What is best for learning?

Also, should I play against the computer or with people? Reading through the forum, there are a bunch of warnings against playing with computers since it could lead you to internalizing mistakes and not improving. I've also read stuff like "it's OK to play against the computer - just stop doing that when you start winning".

Thoughts?

If you really want get better, and you have a fairly thick skin, then play stronger opponents and while they are crushing you, plan on someday getting revenge. If you don't have such a thick skin, this can easily get discouraging, so make sure to get in some even games too.

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"When you are learning, it is not so important whether you are right or wrong." - Bill Spight

I'd say you can learn a fair deal by being repetitively trounced by stronger players. Even better if they review the game afterwords.

That said, a rival can be a good thing. It gives you a more immediate benchmark. If you can get a person of comparable strength who is willing to play you regularly try a fluid handicap system.(theres a word for it but i can't remember.) A 3 win system for example. You start from an even game, nigri for color and all that/ If either of you wins 3 games in a row you graduate a stone. The winner starts always taking white, and the loser black. If the same person wins another 3 in a row you move to a two stone handicap. However if the person who is now taking black wins 3 in a row, you move back up a handicap. I find it to be a very objective way to decide on a handicap. And gives both players a very tangible incentive to both take the game seriously, and improve their play.

To sum it up. You will learn more from stronger players. But a same skill rival might be a better motivating force to improve. And of course there is no reason to not mix and match. I feel at least.

If you have the luxury, as a beginner I'd say the best combo of opponents for you would be someone around 3 stones stronger (to show you the short-term improvements) and someone 10 stones stronger (to point out the long-term goals).

Play both and you'll get demos of your immediate needs and the "big picture". If you can't find these types to play with regularly, just play mindfully; be conscious of your mistakes and successes and you should proceed well.

As far as computers go... Well, they are better than nobody and I've personally been finding some use in playing 9x9 games to improve my life & death skills (or at least trying to make less blunders). That way the play doesn't impact your big board (19x19) strategy that much and provides a quick brush-up on tactical endgame play and making/keeping groups alive or dead.

Good luck and have fun!

Bruce "Bot-fodder" Young

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Currently reading: Galen. Next up: Euclid

I've found playing stronger players very helpful, though I've not had much choice as all the people I know in the game are stronger! That said, playing someone 20 stones stronger than you is just bewildering, though their comments after the game are very useful. There is the caveat that you need a thick skin as others have said, i.e. be like me and not get bothered by a 20 game losing streak because you didn't play anyone within 5 stones of you. I think I've won one out of 20 odd over the board games at the club as I'm one of the weakest that turns up but I find losing instructive and come away with a "next thing to improve" so it's good long term.

Playing even games with someone 5+ stones stronger is very instructive. You will lose though. However the eventual victory will be all the sweeter for it...

I mean, mus (8k now I think) has been my perpetual opponent since almost the beginning for me, we've played so many games that I've lost count. It will be sweet when I eventually (fingers crossed) beat him in an even game.


If you want a game on KGS poke me and if the kids are asleep I'll happily give you a few 9x9 games or an even game of some description (am 15k at the moment for reference). Playing against AIs? I enjoy doing 9x9 against them but hate doing 19x19, they just feel wrong still on the kind of hardware I use (i.e. an iPad). On 9x9 though they give a good game and for a beginner can be so much stronger than you that it can be very instructive with respect to tactics.

Thanks a lot for the great replies - I'll definitely try to seek out stronger players! Most of my friends with whom I have weekly games are beginners like myself; we typically play each other once a week to gauge progress.

It doesn't sound like anybody recommended (even in a lukewarm manner) playing against a computer on a 19x19 . Is that because their play is more mechanical and lacks the shape of human games, or is it because they make mistakes/poor plays that could degrade the learning process?

It's because playing people is more fun.

I agree with everyone. In general, I think it's smart to have people better than you, at least one opponent at your level as a competitor to pull you along, and then also start teaching others about the game.

This keeps me motivated, I'm able to efficiently learn (as much as Is able with family and job) and I still enjoy the game. Getting trounced constantly is hard. And many times it's hard to find players better than you because they all want to play people better than them. That's why I like my system. If you ever would like a teaching game let me know! Megajohn on kgs.

I got a 1k to play against Champion Go HD on an iPad 3 on the weekend. They loved playing 9x9 against it and said it played really interestingly (and beat them over and over at the highest level). On 19x19 they beat it by 30 points at the highest level and said it played very oddly in parts. You don't want to be copying the odd parts but that's very hard not to do if you can't tell the good moves from the odd moves.

For learning tactics and close-in fighting, playing an AI on a 9x9 board is great though.

Hi,
I'm a beginner although who has spent the last 7 months struggling to get a decent grip on this great game. I have taken a lot of wrong turnings on the way so here is my two cents for what it 's worth.
To get into things you basically need a three pronged approach. First you need to play games all the time , second you need to study independently and third you need a better
payer to review your games. Think of it like learning a musical instruments, on the one hand you need to practice basic scales and exercises in the practice room , and on the other you need to play and perform with others.
KGS is an excellent place to start playing straightaway and there is no need to worry about levels. You can specify your handicap and what size of board you want to play. It is a very pleasant and well run system although you might meet the occasional aggressive jerk but that kind of problem is quickly rooted out. the danger is that you start playing like a lot of the lower level players on that sites. When your opponent is banging out stones at high speed you might well start to do the same and basically you will develop real bad habits that are very difficult not cure. The two most fundamental beginner mistakes are perhaps,playing without thinking/not reading two or three moves ahead and not trying to imagine what your opponent is going to do. I think even from the beginning you should try to focus on two people not just your own stones. Plus,thinking that the game is about a lot of localized scrapping to get as many of your opponents stones as possible.Low kyuu players have a strong tendency to do this. It's very seductive.....
To offeset this problem you would be well advised to join DragonGoServer as well. On that site you can play one move every 24 hours so there is time to think deeply and even consult some books.
To achieve any worthwhile level of skill you need to work on tumego (life and death problems) and study basic theory quite hard. there is no way around this. The most effective books I have found are:
Graded Go Problems For Beginners-Yoshinori-Kiseido Publishing Company
The second book of Got-Bozulich.
Basic Techniques of Go- Haruyama
Get strong at Tesuji-Bozulich

As for the Internet study, take a look at the Guo Juan school online. Lots of great lectures and so on.
Best wishes,
Buri