Memorizing Games of Professionals

[karaklis]

This is a bit worrisome. If you're at the point where you're frustrated enough to stop playing, I think it would be a bad idea to take up something even more frustrating.

I think this is mainly a matter of motivation. I've always been the type that prefers studying to playing. I don't need the adrenaline rush every day, it's sufficient to have it every now and then at tournaments. Playing for me fulfills two things: to measure the skills and the social component: hanging around and exchanging knowledge with go playing people. That's why in my spare time when doing something go related, I do tsumego or read go books. The frustration comes in when you see that these activities yield no measurable results. That's why I've been looking for other ways to improve. Your posting woke me up a bit from my lethargy and revived my spirits. I know myself well enough to know that I need a clear path to the goal, because I had success this way with another activity, and that gives me motivation. If I just knew how many matches you memorized and which ones within the two years, it would be of great help.

[jts]

If this 'feasibility' factor holds even in some approximation throughout the game, the actual 'feasible' game tree of Go might be much narrower than people usually claim.

This begs the question. By "feasible" you seem to mean "most likely to lead to victory," but the original question was "can you memorize the game tree of Go so that you know which moves are most likely to lead to victory (as you can in Tic-Tac-Toe)?" No one would doubt that knowing which moves are, as you put it, "feasible" makes you stronger at go.

[tapir]

This is a bit worrisome. If you're at the point where you're frustrated enough to stop playing, I think it would be a bad idea to take up something even more frustrating.

I think this is mainly a matter of motivation. I've always been the type that prefers studying to playing. I don't need the adrenaline rush every day, it's sufficient to have it every now and then at tournaments. Playing for me fulfills two things: to measure the skills and the social component: hanging around and exchanging knowledge with go playing people. That's why in my spare time when doing something go related, I do tsumego or read go books. The frustration comes in when you see that these activities yield no measurable results. That's why I've been looking for other ways to improve. Your posting woke me up a bit from my lethargy and revived my spirits. I know myself well enough to know that I need a clear path to the goal, because I had success this way with another activity, and that gives me motivation. If I just knew how many matches you memorized and which ones within the two years, it would be of great help.

It would help immensely as well if you could enjoy playing. (Both your strength and your well-being.) I mean you would not stop talking a foreign language you learn, while still studying grammar books daily, would you? The other way round looks more healthy to me, (especially when frustrated already), almost nobody can improve without practice.

[daal]

Karaklis - I'd like to recommend Catching Scent of Victory by O Rissei. I got it for myself for Christmas, and have enjoyed it immensely. In the book, O Rissei reviews 20 of his own games pointing out the stragegies he employs (largely meaning his thoughts on the fuseki), and his descriptions of critical moments, sometimes asking the reader what he would do in that situation. I found that this type of presentation made me want to replay the games.

I am sure that there are other comparable books, but in any case, I found it a good deal more fun to try to memorize a commented game than one that I more or less randomly pulled out of the database. It is quite interesting to recall O Rissei's thoughts while replaying the games, and memorizing did not at all seem like a frustrating task.

Also it's worth noting that most of the games happen to be on GoGoD, and one can replay them using the "simplified" Go Scorer program included on the GoGoD CD. BTW, is a full version of the program available?

[TMark]

We're now talking a bit of pre-history. The original GoScorer was a standalone program John wrote for DOS, for use with the GoScribe files (ishi format) that we started with, before we switched to sgf files. I don't know if John has a backup version; I certainly don't. Again, John probably wrote that intro back in the 90s, when he put the GoScorer module into GoGoD95 and then forgot all about it. I know people who like using it for testing their study, but we haven't had too much feedback about it and so we tend to concentrate on things that give us lots of feedback, the extent of the database and Go Seigen commented games.

Best wishes.

[daal]

I was just curious as to what a full version might include because the help file mentions that the Goscorer is a simplified version. As for feedback, despite the primitive graphics, I like it alot. It is simple, easy to use, offers a nice hint mode and I prefer it over both the kombilo and Drago replay modes. The only time I don't use it when replaying games is when I want to try out variations, and for that I like CGoban best.

[kgsbaduk]

Karaklis - I'd like to recommend Catching the Scent of Victory by O Rissei. I got it for myself for Christmas, and have enjoyed it immensely. In the book, O Rissei reviews 20 of his own games pointing out the stragegies he employs (largely meaning his thoughts on the fuseki), and his descriptions of critical moments, sometimes asking the reader what he would do in that situation. I found that this type of presentation made me want to replay the games.

I am sure that there are other comparable books, but in any case, I found it a good deal more fun to try to memorize a commented game than one that I more or less randomly pulled out of the database. It is quite interesting to recall O Rissei's thoughts while replaying the games, and memorizing did not at all seem like a frustrating task.

Also it's worth noting that all of the games happen to be on GoGoD, and one can replay them using the "simplified" Go Scorer program included on the GoGoD CD. BTW, is a full version of the program available?

already bought this book online. We will see few days later how it works to me. im 3dan kgs and i need fresh look at Go or gonna make suicide

[karaklis]

Karaklis - I'd like to recommend Catching the Scent of Victory by O Rissei.
...
I found it a good deal more fun to try to memorize a commented game than one that I more or less randomly pulled out of the database. It is quite interesting to recall O Rissei's thoughts while replaying the games, and memorizing did not at all seem like a frustrating task.

Thanks for the suggestion, daal. I will give it a try and get it next tournament (11 days to go). And I agree with you that memorizing a commented game is much better and more fun. Before I get that book, I'll start with Kageyama's "master piece" in the last chapter of his "lessons". Actually I don't like that book, but before I don't get anything out of it, I'll learn this well commented match. It must be good for something.

[rubin427]

Catching the Scent of Victory by O Rissei.

Is there any interest in making a study group of this book? (which could be as informal as a thread for comments) Or do people prefer to do this kind of study independently?

[daal]

Catching the Scent of Victory by O Rissei.

Is there any interest in making a study group of this book? (which could be as informal as a thread for comments) Or do people prefer to do this kind of study independently?

Hm. A study group? I'm not so sure, because the book largely revolves around O Rissei's observations on what he sees as the critical points in the game, and I basically study the book by replaying the games and trying to absorb his thoughts.

On the other hand, I have found some of his ideas inspiring, particularly in the first section where he discusses his (to me unusual) opening moves and I imagine a discussion on some of these might be fruitful.

[daal]

Hm. Another idea: A sticky post with links to (commented) professional games that L19ers have taken an interest in and posted for one reason or another. This might be a good starting point for finding games to study/memorize. Something like this:

Shusaku - Yuza posted and commented by Redstick/Go Seigen: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 863#p45863

Go Siegen - Kazuku posted and commented by John Fairbairn/Go Seigen: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 863#p45863

Lee Sedol vs. Kong Jie posted and commented by Peter Hansmeier link (and how to google for an .sgf) from Kokomi: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 446#p30446

Kong Jie - Mok Jinseok "the shining move" posted by FakeDeath, two comments from Wang Lei http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 118#p23118
etc.


P.s., I searched on L19 for the ear reddening move, but the search engine thinks "reddening" is too common a word to search for.

[hyperpape]

Daal, you can create site specific google searches by adding "site:lifein19x19.com" to a search. I don't know how completely google has indexed the boards, though.

Ear reddening search: http://www.google.com/search?q=ear+redd ... ent=safari

[karaklis]

Yeah, sometimes the forum search show a strange behaviour. But you can find the "ear reddening move" here as well. It can be found 12 times excluding repetitions.

[kgsbaduk]

So who is in Memorazing Games Mode ? Share your experienced

[daal]

I'm currently memorizing games from Catching Scent of Victory (my review) I find it's a rather stress-free way to study go. What I've been doing is replaying the games in Goscorer (see above)after reading about the game. I find it's particularly enjoyable and interesting when I have to guess because I can't remember the game move.