Hi everyone! First post, and already I have a problem for you.

I played a game today and right in the opening my opponent played instead of the regular Joseki move at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Figure 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . c . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was planning for W a followed by B b. The idea is to use my hoshi stones to their fullest.

I thought about it for a while and the best I could come up with was the lower Joseki extension/loose pincer of c, leaving d as a threat.

I've had a bad feeling from this move all day. I think it's mostly because I was vying for influence and felt that I should have pincered high anyway. My opponent ended up hitting under my hoshi at Q3 instead of invading at san-san. The game was uncomfortable until I got him floating in the centre.

How would you respond to White 1 and why? I look forward to reading your thoughts!

White a is absolutely necessary. Now you can immediately play d and either seal him in completely or retake the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 O O X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black 1 = 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . . 2 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X b a . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White leaves the lower left unstable, so continuing as Black is a good option. The option Black A to D means that White's lower side group is weaker than expected despite the short, safe white extension on the lower side.

(How to create move numbers 10+ in diagrams?!)

EDIT:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black 1 = 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C O X C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C C O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | C O O O O X . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | C C B O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C C C O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After an imagined simplifying forcing exchange, in the lower left White has 11 points while Black has one point and an excess of 8 influence stones there. Black has played one excess stone in the lower left, so adjust the calculation, here, by playing a good local continuation: White's extension on the bottom. The black wall does not have any noteworthy aji; White's corner group is pretty well confined, but part of Black's wall then points to an already countered direction.

EDIT 2:

In a more global joseki evaluation on the lower half of the board, 4 points can be added for White on the bottom, giving -14. White has two more and Black has one more relevant outside influence stones. So the Black excess of influence stones is 7. The resulting ratio becomes |-14/7| = 2. This is within the allowed value range. So, on this larger scale of positional context, one can call the result fair. Note that, on the entire bottom, the stone difference is 0.

EDIT 3:

[One point for Black on the outside.]

EDIT 4:

Oops, mistake. I forgot to account for the different number of played stones in the lower left. Now this is corrected above and the wrong ratio is removed.

I don't know that I'd rush to "d"

it is certainly big, but right now pincers become a dual purpose move of extension and attack.

I would look for a good pincer there, and bank on white having difficulty finding time to come back to the lower left and fix.

EDIT: Try a tighter pincer, "c" is too loose, you want to put pressure on his stone in the bottom right. He doesn't have time to make use of the larger extension from the bottom left, because you always have "d" to fix AND his stone is in trouble.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...

See my previous post why d is a good move. Another analysis might be done for the tenuki followed by a black pincer.

I don't think that "d" is bad, I just don't think it's optimal. If white is forced into running first, "d" becomes crippling.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...

To answer this, one must make lots of more analysis also about further opening development:)

I didn't expect such great responses so fast!

I like the idea of a tighter pincer, with the weak stone at and the move at d as collateral. In the game, I was afraid to extend further, and I tend not to think too clearly.

In fact, a tight pincer now seems like the obvious choice.

For numbering diagram moves past 10, there's a note to that effect at http://senseis.xmp.net/?HowDiagramsWork.

The best part is how if that any White replies to a tight pincer (let's say the vicious M3) seem to help Black, or at the very least leave him with sente.

If White finally completes his Joseki, for example...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Variation 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White seems out of good moves on the bottom side.

Any of the regular responses to this pincer instead of seem to end up giving Black a huge moyo on the bottom. White would still need to patch up his Joseki or suffer as per the variation RobertJasiek offered.

I just don't like White's comfortable two-space extension. And in this case it's my opponent who has the liberty of bullying my hoshi.

Another choice is the simple one-point jump.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Variation 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . 5 . 2 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We can all run out while I grab some profit, and the threat at a does its job of ensuring my advantage. At this juncture, the fight would be centered around getting sente to play there first. Either way, it's not a loss for Black.

I feel a lot better already!

Please note the correction of my earlier analysis.

On the first line, start with $$Bm10

The m10 makes it that the numbering starts at 10 (so 1 becomes 10, 2 becomes 11, etc)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Variation 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White looks fine to me.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Ok, thanks! How does one get diagrams with numbers both smaller than and at least 10?

You could start with $$Bm8, for instance.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm8 Diagram Test 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . . 4 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OMG, I need to write 1, 2, 3 to get 8, 9, 10? Terrible!

How do I do it for diagrams with more than 10 plays?

No puedo.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Haha... that approach to numbering on diagrams does seem... how to put it politely... a programmer's idea

No, a programmer would definitely make you start counting from 0.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

When I first proposed it, I suggested the numbers should follow the last digit, so if you wanted 13,14,15..20,21,22 you would use m13 and in the diagram use 3,4,5...0,1,2. But it was decide that the current implementation was better, because there are many existing diagrams on Sensei's Library that would be much easier to convert. Before the option to go above 10 existed at all, it was common practice to just start follow-up diagrams at 1 again (what other option was there, after all?). With this implementation, all you would have to do to update it is to add something like "m8" at the top to have it number from 8 instead. With my proposal, you would additionally have to renumber the whole diagram.

See other post



This is not possible. It has been discussed before also on SL. The basic reason is that the diagramming software was deliberately kept extremely simple with a 1-to-1 mapping of characters to intersections. A more complicated scheme would be possible, of course, but you have to weigh the pros (experienced diagram editors can create more complex diagrams) with the cons (it is harder for beginning editors to start making diagrams).

An additional benefit, IMO, is that this forces editors to keep diagrams short. Diagrams with dozens of moves are often almost impossible to follow, especially for weaker players who do not have as much experience visualizing deep variations in their heads. Of course, 10 may not be the ideal cutoff point for the number of moves, but you can give yourself some leeway with other markup. E.g:

Here's a common 3-3 invasion joseki that comprises 13 moves if we count the initial 4-4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W 3-3 invasion joseki
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 7 8 . . . .
$$ | . . W B . 0 . . .
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . .
$$ | . 3 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

After the invasion , black blocks on the top with , the joseki then goes like this.

By using markup like , in combination with an explanatory text like this, you can fit the 13 moves in a single diagram. This only goes so far, of course, but from about 13 or 14 moves forward, it is often better to just split it in two diagrams anyway.

No easy diagram editing continues to prevent me from adding relatively more diagrams. Simple. I rather spend time on writing books.