How do you defend against this invasion?

speedchase · **#21**

There isn't a specific refutation, but the problem is that if you had just played the 3-4 point instead, you could have accomplished basically the same thing, and white wouldn't have as much influence from :w1:

SmoothOper · **#22**

speedchase wrote:

There isn't a specific refutation, but the problem is that if you had just played the 3-4 point instead, you could have accomplished basically the same thing, and white wouldn't have as much influence from :w1:

I have heard this argument, however the 3-4 point still leaves the corner vulnerable to an approach from the other side, whereas if white tries a double approach after black 3-3, black can attack.

speedchase · **#23**

SmoothOper wrote:

speedchase wrote:

There isn't a specific refutation, but the problem is that if you had just played the 3-4 point instead, you could have accomplished basically the same thing, and white wouldn't have as much influence from :w1:

I have heard this argument, however the 3-4 point still leaves the corner vulnerable to an approach from the other side, whereas if white tries a double approach after black 3-3, black can attack.

I don't see what you mean. jumping up in your diagram is still better than approaching a 3-4 stone.

Bill Spight · **#24**

SmoothOper wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

Sometimes when compelled to play handicap stones, I will do this. I even used this strategy against a 9dan during a multiplayer exhibition, the 9dan even pointed out at the end that two or three moves from the end I would have won if I hadn't made a certain mistake. Though most non-dan club players will say this play is bad, I am not sure there is a specific refutation.

It is self-refuting.

SmoothOper · **#25**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 . 3 $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 X . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

Vs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 $$ | . . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 4 . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

FlameBlade · **#26**

Vs...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 X . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 4 . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

Tryss · **#27**

SmoothOper wrote:

speedchase wrote:

There isn't a specific refutation, but the problem is that if you had just played the 3-4 point instead, you could have accomplished basically the same thing, and white wouldn't have as much influence from :w1:

I have heard this argument, however the 3-4 point still leaves the corner vulnerable to an approach from the other side, whereas if white tries a double approach after black 3-3, black can attack.

A little tewari :

Would you play like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

Or like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

Loons · **#28**

Top right: De-handicap-gaming the situation for clarity, we get something like this.

Later, if white gets a stone on 'a', it seems awkward for black to play 'b', so white may get to play around 'c' which starts raising questions like "is there more than one eye in the corner".

Also, 'l' is not forceful against white's base. White could even play 'm' to expand the base locally if necessary.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . b c . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . m . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . l . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bottom left, we have the generic situation where the 3-3 is played as a splitting attack; stopping white from dodging away into the corner.

SmoothOper · **#29**

Loons wrote:

Top right: De-handicap-gaming the situation for clarity, we get something like this.

Later, if white gets a stone on 'a', it seems awkward for black to play 'b', so white may get to play around 'c' which starts raising questions like "is there more than one eye in the corner".

Also, 'l' is not forceful against white's base. White could even play 'm' to expand the base locally if necessary.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . b c . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . m . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . l . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bottom left, we have the generic situation where the 3-3 is played as a splitting attack; stopping white from dodging away into the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . 5 c . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . l . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This degenerates to a pretty standard joseki.

Loons · **#30**

5 and 6 in your diagram would not be played.

Some related joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

How do you defend against this invasion?

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