Hm... what about the sequence from move 171: K15 - L15 - L16 - J15? After that J16 and K17 should be miai(?).

Yes, but if I'm too weak to understand why it's wrong then my opponent is most probably too weak to take advantage of it, right?
To me it feels very convenient with san ren sei. What would you recommend as an alternative black response to white's approach? I'm curious as I most often play the san ren sei as black.

Also, I have problems regarding josekis. They provide an equal outcome - but the outcome is only equal when one has pro strength. Often one side gets solid territory for example, the other gets influence he has no skills to turn into profit.

For example, this one is so good for white I don't even consider it a joseki.


schawipp: you're right! I missed that.

What is her reasoning for her advice, why does she say 4d- could not evaluate the move? Nowadays, there are evaluation methods applicable by everybody; not just by 5d+.

I don't think you are too weak to understand why it's wrong if it is explained well (but I can't be bothered to make loads of diagrams now, and perhaps it's already explained somewhere on the forum already). And often a mistake like that can be self-punishing in that you lose other choices of how to play later: your opponent doesn't actively have to do anything. But yes at 6k you will both be making bigger mistakes and it's hardly game-deciding. But if, like me, you strive to play better moves even given your own current inadequacies I'd recommend trying something else.



Yeah the middle hoshi makes it not so bad. but the right side isn't as big as it looks and by attaching you strengthen white's top side group so lose possibilities there. A question: what will you play if after attach, hane, extend white jumps to the 3-3 point?


One point jump, a pincer (e.g one space low or two space high), lower side hoshi, or Takemiya's kosumi to 5-5 if you feel adventurous.

There is one free sample chapter here :
http://smartgo.com/pdf/sanrensei.pdf

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Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

I don't know, and I don't follow her advice as I, as a 4d, have kept this move in my repertoire (but play it far less than most kyu players). Perhaps 5d was just chosen as stronger than the players in the room, or maybe she was exaggerating for effect. Anyway, if a 6k has 2 choices: keep playing this move as they do, or never play it, I think the latter will make them play better go. Of course there is a third choice. Anyway, my point, and I think hers, is not that you should never play this move until you are 5d, but that if you do giant claxons should blare in your head beforehand and you'd better have a darn good reason why the move is justified.

P.S. She probably didn't say banish, that wording is mine.

To clarify regarding the attachment, the short reason it's often not good is because it fixes the shape and both sides become strong. Sure, black gets his moyo extension, but white has a strong group that is difficult to attack while black could have played in such a manner as to emphasize the moyo potential AND leave more aji in white's position to exploit later. The time to play it is when the strength that white gets doesn't matter because white is already strong, and will be left somewhat overconcentrated. At least, this is my understanding of the position.

It absolutely sounds like the sort of thing she would say when she's trying to get a group of kyu players to try new strategies. "Hmm, this move? maybe when you are 5 dan"

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

As a practical matter, if kyu players avoid tsuke-nobi they will almost always play better. It is not unheard of at in pro play in sanrensei, but it is on the order of 1%.

As for being joseki, Ishida's remark back in the 1970s that there are no 4-4 joseki is still almost true. As Jiang and Rui say in The World's New Joseki, the 4-4 joseki in the books were developed in handicap play, and may not be appropriate for even games. And, IMO, as far as modern 4-4 joseki go, the smoke has hardly cleared. Lines are still being tested out.

Edit: I mean that they will play better in even games. In handicap games tsuke-nobi is still good.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

A few comments on the opening.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Searching my database on the position below (to include various alternatives on the left side of the board), results in the following list of professional games:
Kitani Minoru - Go Seigen, 1936-04-08
Sugiuchi Masao - Cho Chikun, 1986-03-26
Takano Hideki - Hiraoka Satoshi, 1991-08-04
Seo Pong-su - Han Ch'eol-kyun, 1992-10-26
Kobayashi Satoru - Cho Chikun, 1996-01-31
Cho Hun-hyeon - Yi Ch'ang-ho, 1997-09-24
Dang Xiyun - Qin Shi, 2007-10-16

The underlined player made the atttachment (i.e. in the first game White made a san-ren-sei and attached on Black's approach stone). YMMV

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

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$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

I have read that in a couple of places too, but not that immediate kakari on the "good" side was the right thing - it was described as bad because of the natural direction it gives Black a few moves later in the opening, and it almost punishes itself.

Do I have that right? Or is the order unimportant, and is approaching straight away good too?

_________________
Confucius in the Analects says "even playing go is better than eating chips in front of tv all day." -- kivi

At DDK levels, sometimes even at 1-1 is not a losing move.

The other moves, the ones that really decide the game
at these levels, are much more urgent to study, IMO.

When we are these levels, we routinely play very slow, very small moves —
moves that are literally about the same as 1-1. Passes. -1 point in gote, etc.

I think it's a little crazy to worry about at these levels.
But if you enjoy studying it, more power to you.

I'm sorry but i don't follow. I checked the lecture in-seong once made about san-ren-sei and there he sad the attach is "ok" and "possible". Maybe not as recommened and often played as other moves, but still not "bad". You may not want to give a detailed explanation with a lot of diagrams about this, then can you instead link to a audio-lecture of guo juan, where she talks about this in more detail?

Also the new joseki-dictionary by Takao Shinji still includes the attach as an answer to the approach keima and says it is usually played if black can expect to build a large moyo on the side - which is in fact the reason i would play this move with san-ren-sei and not (for example) with ni-ren-sei. The local position on the side is identical to a position in a handicap-game and i don't believe that white gains so much more from this exchange than black.

_________________
Magics way up the hill (personal study journal)

What the inseong says is right. It's inseong who know when to play this move.
What Guo Juan says is also right. Below inseong many players fall into the habit of playing this move, while most of the time another move is better. She forcefully opens up the game for these players.
Even so, her advice or the inseong is relevant to very strong players because they assume such choices to be significant to the result and the overall level of play. For (my judgment) players below 5d it is not true that an advantageous opening - through smart choices - is correlated to the end result. They make the difference in the middle or end game, save the occasional deciding blunder in the opening.

I have a lot of respect for Guo Juan and have followed lectures with her in the past. I think she and her fellow pro level teachers, teach on a level though that is fundamentally too high for their average student. Their selection of topics is intrinsically targetting (high) dan players. This is also the level their kyu students aspire. Perhaps they find each other at a commercial equilibrium.

You might as well say that this (like any) move was played if it is at least as good as all other moves. Do they have more specific advice?

Hi all,
still 6k. (I didn't want to be disrespectful with my previous question but I think some disbelief every now and then can only help me improve. Btw thx for suggesting 5-5, Uberdude!)

In the following game (as usual) I'm building a huge moyo (perhaps it's not even a moyo, but considerable influence), which gets dispelled by placing a single stone (as usual). I'm really fed up with that. Maybe I'll switch to more territory oriented play, but for now, I'd like to find out if I can do something to protect my hard earned moyo.

The game is here:


In the end I won because I accidentally spotted a life and death problem (maybe doing some tsumego on my phone every now and then is useful after all). But otherwise I would have lost by a few points I think.
- when I played I felt somewhat uneasy about P-3. Luckily forced me to fix my shape (or at least make it somewhat better)
- I think was bad. It later directly led to my win but I think its bad anyways.
- mwhahaha
- I thought for a long time before . I felt an urge to approach the top left but I didn't want to provoke a ladder-breaker and I also considered a direct take too slow. At least also caps Q-10 so it has more purpose than just taking. Was it a good move, or what could have been a better choice?
- was unpleasant because I didn't want to use my wall to create minor territory. So I only played those few stones around L-4 to keep up my wall's influence.
- and is the infernal stone I was talking about. How to handle this move? I thought I ought to be able to kill it. But what if I fail? The risk was too high so I chose to protect territory instead. I still managed to put some pressure on the invading stones - but not enough. Is there a sure (read: fool-proof) way to kill ? (My choice for the beginning would probably be E-10 or F-11.) I'm really really weak at killing running groups, sigh...
- I wanted to somehow utilize the aji in the corner to somehow protect around F-14 in the process - but it didn't work. (At least I gathered some points.)
- :w108: I didn't think about killing that group yet. I just thought that it's too big a point not to take.
- :b109: was yet another frustrating move. At least I didn't feel like I should be able to kill it.
- :w130: I know surrounding should come first. I didn't aim for a kill, but I didn't want that group live easily and without stress. At least I strengthened my borders a bit.
- :b155: I so wanted to play E-1 myself but I couldn't find the time for it.

My thoughts.

24: You can think about playing this move on the side. Now blacks stone is cutting two strong groups that don't need to connect at all. Therefore black will have a useless weak group in the center.

30: I think this would be better as a pincer? Do you know any 3-4 pincer joseki?

28: Actually considering how easy it was for black to come in maybe you should have extended from the wall you created so there was less space to dispel your wall's strength.

70-74: looks like white is desperate to connect. But look at the groups individually I think they would be fine on their own unconnected. But because white connected his two groups it gave black time to strengthen and jump out.

70: Imagine 70 at G8 where will black's group run? And look at the new moyo you are creating in the center with the outside influence of your other stones.

88: Why did you take so long to play here? This is a weak group for you to attack. Imagine if you got this move in before black played F12

Nice catch at the end! It feels good when tsumego starts paying off.

I would suggest that when your groups are split or cut in two, consider how strong each group is before you connect them.
If one group is already very strong see if there is a good move to make your other group strong.
If both groups are already very strong see if there is a good move to attack your opponent.

If you want to defend your moyo then, instead of defending your cash when your opponent tries to reduce, defend your moyo.

What happens if you pass after 67? How does black live? Notice that black played the a14 endgame too early (made you stronger) which means he threatens little by breaking into the side. He certainly can't live there so needs to run away. So instead of passing (which I think it's still not so easy for black to live after) play from the outside like f11. In fact answer once at d9 could be ok as ignoring shoulder hit is a little painful if you are unsure of killing, but the moves after that keeping the territory were very slack, surround at g10. Or how about answering 67 at f15 and declaring black's lone stone dead in a sea of white stones even if he gets to play 2 moves in a row (f15 is not a total pass as it cuts off black's easiest escape route and attacks from a very big distance). It's certainly funny and quite possibly true. I expect Cho Chikun could live inside, but I would easily kill a 6k, and against someone of my own strength I would not be sure of living or killing for either side. Basically you have too much respect for the soundness of your opponent's moves: leap at the opportunity to laugh in your opponent's face and crush his overplays to dust.