How to play this non-joseki?

paK0 · #1

So this just happened in a game(I was white)

In one word: terrible! But I know you can cut a small knights-jump in this position, so a large one should be possible as well. What exactly was my loosing move?

oca · #2

I'm also interested on this one
I think i would have played the same as you did...

Maybe :w12:

crosscut at D17 ?

Violence · #3

You know you can crosscut? How do you know?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 2 8 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 5 6 0 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For 11, black makes a move on the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 2 9 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 0 5 6 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X O X O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 4 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It turns out, you can't cut. You have to let white choose between giving you a large corner or a lot of thickness.

ez4u · #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Okunuki Chisaku - Yamamoto Genkichi, 1809-04-28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . O X , . . . . 4 3 X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 8 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Miyashita Shuyo - Hashimoto Shoji, 5th Judan, 1966 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . 7 . . . . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . . . . . 2 1 3 O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . 5 8 , . . . O . , . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . O 6 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Cao Youyin - Zheng Yan, 1st China Women's League, 2013-06-26 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 3 X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

paK0 · #5

Thanks for the variations.

I just realized my small knights comment was pretty unclear, I was referring to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 5 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

RobertJasiek · #6

Move 6 was your losing move, which does not respect Q17 and fails to apply the basic principles for pincers. A close and low pincer should be supported on its side, but the opposite is the case: Q17 attacks that pincer. Move 6, if a pincer, should be high and far or very far.

Uberdude · #7

RobertJasiek wrote:

Move 6 was your losing move, which does not respect Q17 and fails to apply the basic principles for pincers. A close and low pincer should be supported on its side, but the opposite is the case: Q17 attacks that pincer. Move 6, if a pincer, should be high and far or very far.

So are these professionals' moves similarly losing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Hashmitoto Utaro vs Sakata Eio, 1980 and Seo Bong-Su vs Cho Hunhyeon 1983 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Lest you say the black approach at top left supports the pincer, how about this one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Go Seigen vs Sekiyama Riichi, 1933 (rotated to show similarity with above) $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or is the top right corner not being white important too?

RobertJasiek · #8

There is one exception: the pincer stone is offered as a sacrifice. Otherwise, the pincer is wrong and a different pincer (or none) would be better.

You can find pro counter-examples to everything, but this proves nothing except that pros also make mistakes. (I have not studied these two particular games yet.)

"Losing" is, OC, an exaggeration. It is in the 0,5 to 2 points loss range.

Both adjacent corners are relevant.

Uberdude · #9

RobertJasiek wrote:

Both adjacent corners are relevant.

How about diagonal?

Is your principle about a close and low pincer only being good if already supported on that side just for low approach to 3-4, or also other approaches to 3-4 or 4-4? What do you think of this move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

And this one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Both have been played professionally many times. I was interested to learn from On Sojin 7p that he thought the first was a mistake and white has no particularly good continuation after black takes the corner, whereas in the second the low approach to the 3-4 is a good continuation if black takes the corner (so black often makes shimari, white splits or approach on the right, and then black gets corner). However, approaching the lower right 4-4 from the right after black takes the corner actually has a good winning percentage in ps.waltheri.net! Perhaps that is because Cho Hunhyun and Rui Naiewei seem to like it and they can win their games whatever possibly suboptimal opening moves they do. Or maybe it's just a fine move.

RobertJasiek · **#10**

I dislike both. Black can (jump out and) lean on the left side, then attack the pincer stone / group. However, these two examples are the closest to still being fair.

How to play this non-joseki?

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