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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: counting/endgame problem
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:52 pm 
Gosei
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This game is almost over. But who won, and by how much? 6.5 komi, Japanese rules.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . |
$$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: forgot to add, white has 1 more prisoner than black.


Last edited by emeraldemon on Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:01 pm 
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I'm not very good at this, but I have white up by 9 or so.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:34 pm 
Oza
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My best guess:
Assuming nothing tricksy, I have a 1.5 point game in W's favor. (My counting isn't accurate to within one point anyway, though.) However, I see a need for two repair moves.

Edit: no, never mind on the first one. Black doesn't need to make any repair moves. Capturing the r10 stones is fine. Ignore the first two diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 3 X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 2 |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 4 1 |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . 9 8 |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X 7 6 |
$$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 5 X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:oops:

One variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w5: @ :w3:, :b6: @ :w1: :b8: @ :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 7 X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 3 |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 2 1 |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X 4 |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . 0 |
$$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 9 X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Meanwhile, down in the other corner, B has a 1 pt move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | 3 . 4 O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | 5 2 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . 2 . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | 5 3 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . 4 O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, these repair moves cancel out, so it should still be W+1.5 if I counted correctly.
So it's actually W+0.5.
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Offline Jayy
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:02 pm 
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I read W+0.5.
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Offline Ellyster
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:39 pm 
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I'm not very good at counting yet.

My final count is W+0.5, but my first mental counting was B+0.5 so it seems that I misscounted one white territory at first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | S O S S S S O W B . O S S S S S S S S |
$$ | # O # O S O S O X X O S S S O S S S S |
$$ | S # O S O O O X X O O O O O X O O O S |
$$ | S # O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X T Q X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X Q X T Q T T X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X T X Q T T Q X X X X P O O S O X X T |
$$ | T X T X X T Q X O O O O S S # O X T T |
$$ | T T X T T T T X X . X X O O O X Q X T |
$$ | T T T X X T T T T X T X X O . X Q X T |
$$ | T X X O O X T T X X X X O O . X T T T |
$$ | X T X O O X X X O X O . O . X T X T T |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X T T T X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O S O X O X X X Q X O |
$$ | W O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | S S S O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | S S O O X X X X X T X X O O O # O S O |
$$ | S S O X X T X T T T X O S O S S O O S |
$$ | S S O O X T T T T X O O O S S S S S S |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:46 pm 
Gosei
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@jts
Quote:
Edit: no, never mind on the first one. Black doesn't need to make any repair moves


Are you sure? What happens when players fill in dame?


@Ellyster
There are 3 small mistakes in your count. What happens when players fill in dame?
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:14 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B just responds to T12 at R9 and he's fine. So yeah, final answer.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:42 pm 
Gosei
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@jts
jts wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B just responds to T12 at R9 and he's fine. So yeah, final answer.


This diagram is correct! but I think you should count it again :) I thought spotting the aji in the lower left was the tricky part, but apparently it's counting that's difficult.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:19 pm 
Oza
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Yeah, well. :-) I never expected to get the count right! I recounted and got B+2.5, and then I recounted a third time and got W+0.5 again.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:43 am 
Oza

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I get Black by .5, but only because I saw Jts's point about the lower left.

I *really* need to work on my counting. My estimate wandered from B+2.5 to W+1.5 just because of memory errors or literal counting errors. I counted the upper left as 16 points for awhile.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:57 am 
Gosei
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@hyperpape

hyperpape wrote:
I get Black by .5, but only because I saw Jts's point about the lower left.

I *really* need to work on my counting. My estimate wandered from B+2.5 to W+1.5 just because of memory errors or literal counting errors. I counted the upper left as 16 points for awhile.


This is correct :tmbup:
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:09 am 
Gosei
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@jts

Should be B+0.5
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:24 am 
Oza

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If you ever want to post more of these, I enjoyed it. You don't necessarily get this kind of feedback when you count in game. I guess what I should do is count all my OGS games late in the endgame.

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