MoyoGo available again

[daal]

@ Ellyster - thanks for the clarification.

[FrankdeGroot]

Someone mentioned that the majority of games in MGS are "lifted from GoGoD".

In fact, MGS contains hundreds of thousands of Ama games and the number of pro games that were unique to GoGoD alone were at most 3000 games, mainly very old ones that I may even have deleted.

Hence, a negligeable percentage of games that come with MGS are unique for GoGoD. I used very many game databases from sources all over the world. Private collections, Chinese pros that sent me many records, every imaginable source was used. Since Go records are not copyrightable, this was fully legal.

[admin] Several sentences removed for being in violation of the TOS -JB [/admin]

[FrankdeGroot]

I have just been informed by the censor of this forum that I am not allowed to explain what the real reason for the boycot of my software was.

[badukJr]

Did you get sued?

[Joaz Banbeck]

[admin]

For some reason, most threads about moyoGo seem to end badly, with off topic references to mental illness, lawsuits, and WWII. I ask all posters to stick to the topic, and in particular to avoid those three tempting off topic subjects.

Thanks
JB

[/admin]

[SoDesuNe]

People ought to have the right to make an educated choice. Since you have to pay for this software, you support the individual behind it. And some individuals (and companys) I personaly don't like to support because I know what they will support with my money then.

[FrankdeGroot]

I did not get sued. I am not allowed to name names by the moderator, but I can tell you it has nothing to do with my opinion on WW2 history.

I published my controversial opinion on WW2 history two years after I had completely given up on the software.

The real reason was an attempt by two competitors to completely ostracize me from the Computer Go world, because I was a threat to their bottom line. That's all there was to it. I was falsely accused of unethical things, and "you" (Go players) bought it hook, line and sinker.

No hard feelings though! I learnt tremendously much from the whole episode, in terms of how neurotypical humans think (As I said, I have Aspergers), also some programming techniques I now use to my advantage, business sense etc. So I guess you can say that you all helped me to achieve success after all, for which I am truly grateful.

[Mike Novack]

[admin]
For some reason, most threads about moyoGo seem to end badly, with off topic references to mental illness, lawsuits, and WWII. I ask all posters to stick to the topic, and in particular to avoid those three tempting off topic subjects.
Thanks
JB
[/admin]

But note the post following your ruling.

The problem, Joaz, is that to declare that these things are off topic (irrelevant) to decisions about MoyoGo is in fact to have taken a side in the matter in dispute. I agree with you that this forum is not the place to discuss these things but we mustn't go so far as to pretend that there aren't things "off topic" influencing whether people will accept or reject MoyoGo unrelated to the merits of the software.

We can acknowledge that without going into any details about the elephant in the corner of the room, even whether it is an elephant or a rhinoceros. Part of the dispute is that some people feel whatever big critter is over in that corner of the room doesn't affect the use of the room and some people feel that it does.

In fact, Joaz, in listing specific things to be off topic you have gone farther in describing what that big critter might be than I have. I'd have left it up to the curious to research back forum discussions to find out for themselves. But if you were really meaning to say that we can discuss the pros and cons of MoyoGo without taking these off topic things into account, then you have taken a side.

[FrankdeGroot]

They say time heals all wounds and for me, the severe wounds have healed because I became very successful in what I do now. Even if MGS would have been a resounding success worldwide I would never have had so much financial freedom as I have today. So I am not bitter any more. One could argue that it had been a mistake to focus on Go software.

What remains is the lessons one can take away from the episode. It is an interesting thing that happened to me. I never imagined that what happened, would ever happen. I simply was totally naive. I think like a computer, that's why I am a good programmer I guess. Everything has to be "logical" with me. To me, it was logical and ethical what I did.

The lessons I learnt from you were very valuable. I learned how neurotypical people think. I had no idea. If you understand the neurotypical mind, you can predict their thoughts, given certain inputs. And you can also predict the outputs. So if I desire a certain output, given the "formula" that is the neurotypical mind, I can calculate what inputs I need to present.

Thinking like an autist, an Asperger, wasted only four years of my efforts but I have increasingly able to focus my efforts on the neurotypical mind, with great success.

I learnt that neurotypicals are not interested in truths. Truths interfere too much with their beliefs. Neurotypicals are emotional beings, seeking constant reinforcement of their deeply held beliefs such as their value systems. Logic and rational arguments play an insignificant role for them.

It took me years of practical study, researching and testing the neurotypical mind, in order for me to form even a vague concept of how it operates. I had to do that, otherwise I knew I was doomed in society. I can recommend the book "A Field Guide to Earthlings: An autistic/Asperger view of neurotypical behavior" for those who struggle with the same problem. Of course it is impossible to truly understand neurotypicals for someone with Asperger's ("neurotypicals is not a derogatory term, it means "people with a normal brain", vs. people on the autistic spectrum).

[FrankdeGroot]

Incidentally, if you take the side of Aaron Swartz, you will take my side as well. I comitted the same "crime" - actually a much lesser one, not even a crime, legally speaking.

[Mike Novack]

Frank, not about committing a crime (in the legal sense).

In the jurisdiction where I live you can say anything as far as criminal law is concerned.

So.....? Your logic leads you to expect that there would be a 1:1 correlation between people who break some criminal law and people whom I consider enemy and 1:1 between people who obey all criminal laws and people I consider friends?

Wrong conclusion. I have perfectly good (and even logical) reasons to consider some law breakers my friends and some who obey every law my enemies.

[FrankdeGroot]

I was not referring you you, Mike.
I was referring to extracting game records from various sources.

[Joaz Banbeck]

[admin]
For some reason, most threads about moyoGo seem to end badly, with off topic references to mental illness, lawsuits, and WWII. I ask all posters to stick to the topic, and in particular to avoid those three tempting off topic subjects.
Thanks
JB
[/admin]

But note the post following your ruling.

The problem, Joaz, is that to declare that these things are off topic (irrelevant) to decisions about MoyoGo is in fact to have taken a side in the matter in dispute....

[admin]
No, I'm asking you to take such disputes somplace else. Then we have no 'sides'.
[/admin]

[SoDesuNe]

[admin]
For some reason, most threads about moyoGo seem to end badly, with off topic references to mental illness, lawsuits, and WWII. I ask all posters to stick to the topic, and in particular to avoid those three tempting off topic subjects.
Thanks
JB
[/admin]

But note the post following your ruling.

The problem, Joaz, is that to declare that these things are off topic (irrelevant) to decisions about MoyoGo is in fact to have taken a side in the matter in dispute....

[admin]
No, I'm asking you to take such disputes somplace else. Then we have no 'sides'.
[/admin]

Yes, "we" do. Call it your side.

[daal]

I got a copy of Moyo Go Studio while Frank was offering it for free. My feeling at the time was that if I used my own databases, then the question of whether the included game records are copyrightable or not would be a moot point.

I liked the software quite a bit, though I did have some reservations. It was usually quite fast, but if I left it open for a while and came back to it later, it would become very slow. Usually, when I notice something like this, I write an email to the developer, or ask questions on a support forum. In this case however, Frank had already stated that he no longer intended on working on it, and had also expressed some pretty harsh opinions of go players in general, so didn't bother.

Another issue for me was that the interface was extremely customizable which on the one hand I loved - particularly in contrast to the inflexibility of Smart Go - but on the other hand, it led to a constant resizing and shifting of windows. I found this to be a serious detraction to my concentration.

My decision to uninstall Moyo Go Studio from my computer however, had nothing to do with the software and everything to do with discussions of WW2, mental illness and and lawsuits. Given the history of such discussions, it's easy to see why an admin would want to prohibit them, as they've invariably led to personal attacks in various directions. Clearly, quite a few bridges have been burnt, and with fires still smouldering, it's difficult for anyone to consider building new ones. While I understand the desire to nip any new flamewars in the bud as opposed to having to clean up afterwards, I have to disagree with his assertion that the controversial subjects are irrelevant to the topic. Frank's disputes with the go community, his volatility and indeed his take on the world, all influence our decision to use his software or not.

Frank's decision to resume selling Moyo Go Studio and even apparently spending time thinking about how it could be further developed, as well as his renewed participation here on the forum indicate to me an interest in improving his relationship to the go community. I was glad to read that he no longer feels bitter. Whether this is a step towards reconciliation with the community as a whole and removing the objections to his software is another question. His assertions about neurotypicals (most of us) don't make me particularly optimistic. While it may have a certain amount of validity that neurotypicals place their own beliefs above objective truths, it's not clear to me that what seems logical to a ...neuroatypical?... is necessarily true.

So, here I am talking about mental illness and how it might affect someone. While I really don't want to fan flames, I can't help but think that if I better understood what has driven Frank into these disputes and whether his studies of neurotypicals have made him less abrasive might affect whether I would choose to reinstall the software or not. To me, it's relevant