At moyogo.com you can buy moyogo for 27 $ - once again it's available. I wonder if Frank is planning to do some more work with MoyoGo in the future or if he just wants to make a quick buck for good . I liked moyogo and think it could have been a heck of a programm if worked on consistently.

I thought he had wiped out all his source code already so he's probably just selling the version which he had released as freeware a while ago. At one time, his site even said something like he wiped those freeware files to free up space for a new project and that he had moved on. Anyways, it's great to see such a good software being made available again for those who don't have it. Good luck to you if you are hoping for additional functions to be added to this program though.

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
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Now open only for a select few.
Go is such a beautiful game.

But a "pro" would have access to wiped files on the last "long term keep" backup of his or her drives. So we simply don't know what is going on. Could always ask. I think you might be confusing what he might have available on his website with what he would have available somewhere.

I guess you're not familiar with the history, but Frank is quite special. When he says he's deleted all the old files, you shouldn't believe him, because he has a habit of making sweeping statements then taking them back, but you should really think that it's possible.

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Occupy Babel!

Exactly. One moment he gives MoyoGo away for free, the next he's sellin it, one moment he really did work and update MoyoGo, then he just let it go. It's sad, because though I think he's hot tempered (he said that he has a kind of disease that causes that stuff) I also think he may have a point that the traditional go-business world just didn't want to have extra competition and disadvantaged him. Best way (for me) would be to sell the source code of MoyoGo to another guy and he does continue the work.

It is still top go software on the market, so it is a good news that MoyoGoStudio is back.

He has stated that the pattern matching part of the software has evolved into an unmaintainable state, and that he's using it as a black-box.
This may complicate matters.

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"The connection between the language in which we program and the problems and solutions we can imagine is very close" -- Bjarne Stoustrup

I don't recall I said that, neither is it true. The pattern matching part is incredibly small, it's a few pages of simple code and it has never changed substantially.

I found the sources but I don't consider the project worth pursuing any more.

When I embarked on the project, I was very naive. I have Aspergers and I did not understand how neurotypicals think. My actions, which I considered totally ethical and the (only) right thing to do, were perceived as unethical, hence all of you boycotted the software and after a four-year struggle to explain my position, I finally had to give up. Those years I was working on the software, I was battling a very severe neuroborreliosis as well, which was sheer hell to go through with frequent hospital stays.

I now think that Go players are not worth my efforts. Go players like to live in a strict hierarchy and are generally not capable of thinking for themselves. I will under no circumstances ever release any part of my sourcecode, and I will never work on Go software again.

Nearly all of the Western Go world, nearly all of you here and elsewhere, you have worked very hard to get Moyo Go Studio eliminated from the world of Go software. After years of your attacks you finally succeeded - just after I finalized my designs for a TsumeGo solving module and a self-learning neural network (with an initial population of millions of neurons - radically different design using a genetic algorithm, learning from game records and playing against itself) for a Go playing engine. You made a major achievement in your efforts to prevent these plans to come to fruition because I am a persistent person. So: Congratulations - you fought long and hard and you eventually succeeded in destroying Moyo Go Studio.

What a pity! (But I’ve never used your software, probably mainly b/c I’m a Mac guy, just found out about it through this thread.)

Uhm, WOT? I’ve got no idea what this is about.

Ouch. Neuroborelliosis is really bad. I hope you’ve been able to contain it as far as possible, if not get rid of it.

Uhm, WOT?


I may repeat myself, but … “Uhm, WOT?” I think I’m not the only one who has no idea what this is about. Care to elaborate?

Uhm, …

I have no idea what happened, but it appears to me that you must have perceived whatever happened as a very severe thing.


Best wishes, Tom

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[admin]
Ahhh...if only this were true, then my job would be so easy.
[/admin]

Oh wow. I do believe it would be pretty hard to explain in a manner that both Frank and members of the go community that disagreed with him would be satisfied with.
The simplest explanation that I can give without getting into the discussion(which I don't believe is a good idea to start again), is that there were irreconcilable differences in Frank's attitude and ideas and other outspoken Go community members, that led to big fights.

Unfortunately, it means what you see above, that MoyoGoStudio (which was a pretty interesting Go study tool), is no longer legally available, and no longer developed.

If you truly want more details, send me a PM, since I don't want to reheat the discussion.

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a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

OK then … never mind how curious I am, I think it may be better to decline … thank you, I guess it may be best to keep that little sad feeling in myself.

Cordial greetings, Tom

_________________
My usual first chat line in an online game: “Hello, this is Tom in Germany”
Let me know whether I should add you to my Go circle/list on … Google+ · Facebook · Twitter (not much used these days)

A correction to my previous post: MoyoGoStudio is is still available in the same place the OP mentioned, at the same price.

Sorry for the misinformation, it was what I thought was reality.

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a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Frank, I'm sorry that you aren't able to understand why people responded the way that they did to the conditions you chose to set for the use of your software. I can only speak for myself but I did not consider you "unethical", that's not the basis of the disagreement between us.

Sorry, but I am able to think for myself. That we disagree about reality isn't an indication that my thinking process is inferior. Garbage in, garbage out, regardless of the logic circuits.

If you really did have a neural net taught to play go well it is a shame that development with this very different approach isn't continuing.

I apologize for the flame war in advance, but I can not let a MoyoGo thread go by without mentioning that anyone who enjoys this software should also buy a copy of GoGoD. Unless the collection of games distributed with MoyoGo has changed, most of the SGF files included are lifted from the GoGoD collection. If you are going to support MoyoGo, you should also support the people who put together the game database.

Okay then, so let me please pluck this apart … in the interest of a better (mutual) understanding:

(italics by me) How about “I’m sorry that we haven’t been able to convey why people responded the way that they did …”? This could keep the heat low b/c of no judgement about the other’s understanding. The way you put it doesn’t make the “sorry” part very convincing

This is something I don’t know about (cf. my 1st post here). Some copy protection scheme, I presume?

Nor need it be superior since reality doesn’t give a beep about what we think about it

Since, as I have admitted, I know nothing of the history of this dispute, this sounds to me a bit self-righteous … defining reality, defining garbage …

(italics by me) Here I’d prefer to read it with reduced implicit blame, perhaps like this: “… it is a pity that development … isn’t continuing.”

_________________
My usual first chat line in an online game: “Hello, this is Tom in Germany”
Let me know whether I should add you to my Go circle/list on … Google+ · Facebook · Twitter (not much used these days)

No, Mike is just being objective. More information can be found on SL if you look, as well as much of Google.

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Occupy Babel!

@FrankdeGroot:

First of all:


That's really serious stuff, I hope that you are recovering well and fast.



And, secondly, about Moyo Go Studio:


Really sorry to hear that, I don't agree, I think that Moyo Go Studio is certainly a worth to continue project, without any hint of doubt. Even after being several years "out of the market" is still one of the TOP programs, that should be an clear proof of its value.


Even sadder to hear news, as a Go entusiast, Go student and a Computer Go programmer (and IA researcher), I really wanted to see the Moyo Go source code, and new features, some day. As well as new works of you in the Go area.



And at last but not at least (about the attacks, controversy, boycot...):


Sorry, but I cannot agree with this... generalization is not really good, in this case, because two main points:

1) I don't think that the ultimate target of anyone was get Moyo Go eliminated form the world of Go software, I think they tried to attack your income source (the same that happens with a big company).

I have not hear, in person, any single critizising the quality of the software ever... and that is VERY rare, since all software has its detractors.

Some pro-"free software" people complained about you being too reserved, some others about doing too much marketing... a dissagrement totally understandable since your work intended to be commercial software, and theirs not. But no one has complained about the functionality, so instead of taking all the bad feeling you should be looking at the bright side.



2) I don't believe that L19x19 (or any forum) can be taken as a significative sample of the Go players in the world... not regarding to Go opinions... and even less regarding to political/moral/cultural opinions (which I recall was the trigger of the boycot, I have read a about it, but it was previous to me).


In Spain for example, your point of view, was the majority one. "Freedom of speech" is consider more important than "personal sensibilities", now matter how stupid or even insulting the opinion is. Nowadays is sadly changing to censoreship about religion, and some other topics.

But, for example, it has being always restricted about terrorism (terrorism apology felony)... since that is the cultural bagage that Spain have had, now that is over it may change. So I understand that people in countries, where nazism was really bad during a long time, can have their own cultural sensibility (nazism apology felony). Because it is a really good short term policy to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

It maybe unfair not being able to discuss about certaing topics since you cannot express your opinions if you are in the restricted side (no matter how crazy, in the bad sense, that idea is)... but is just matter of time to stop being so... when II World War truely become only history (in the same way that we don't care about political opinions in the Ancient Egipt).



I think that the only real mistake was that you understimated how sensible some people still are concerning II WW, and failed in forseing how your action was going to be viewed... that defending someone general "freedom of speech", in this particular case, was going to be viewed as necesarely sympathizing with the defended ideology.




I will still hope that one day, even in the worst case in a far future, you change your mind and stop taking every single person's opinion too seriously. No matter what they say, changing opinions is a wise men thing.

Best wishes, Ellyster

<Disclaimer>
P.D.: I don't try to open a flame here, nor brake the forum rules, I'm not talking about politics... I'm talking just about cultural differences. So please refrain of using my post to change the topic.
</Disclaimer>

Ellyster: I don't know how old you are, but when there are still people around who have experienced something, it's not just history. Plenty of people who were children during WWII are still alive and still have strong feelings about how and why their families were killed. What you are allowed to say where may be a matter of culture, but if you want to say things that offend huge numbers of people on the page where your software is being sold internationally you can't seriously complain about people not wanting to buy it.

That said, this wasn't the only marketing mistake.

As to the software, what was particularly unique was the way it used pattern matching to evaluate moves. Frank's work showed us a number of possibilities as to where go software could go. Hopefully someone will learn from them.

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"When you are learning, it is not so important whether you are right or wrong." - Bill Spight

@Daal: I completely and without reserves agree with you.



I'm not sure if the English of my previous post is mistaked (and can be interpreted in an other way ), but what you are saying is precisely what I intended to say, that WWII is still a recent fact to lot of people, so is perfectly normal that discussions are not taken from a "history point of view" but from a "personal point of view", and that needs to be taken in consideration when laws are done.

Consider Nazism apology a felony can be argued to be theoretically wrong (as nothing should go against one really important liberty as the "Freedom of speech"), but in practice, when you put it in context (Middle Europe countries, today), it makes perfect juridical sense to be as it is.

And of course is a matter of culture, since the culture of a country is the sum of opinions and feelings of the people that lives in that country, for example in Portugal, Spain and Italy this may not be as serious issue as in Germany or France, since we were never invaded by Nazi troops (but for us, other "dictatorships apologies" that happened at the same time applies and makes perfect juridical sense).


I personaly don't think that a serious topic like this will become "just history" and end as soon as all the survivors die... but rather something far later than after all the survivors' grandchildrend die (I'm my experience, things that happened to a relative and a person who you knew and cared about, can still produced strong feelings even if he/she passed away long time ago).





Yes, of course!

That's how boycots work in the first place, I just remarked a boycot to a product has usually nothing to do with the product quality being bad, in fact, it usually goes the other way around, you care more about the "marketing", "company opinions" and "the manufacture process" of a product (usual reasons of a boycot) as the quality of the product increases.

Is just that, from my personal point of view, Frank De Groot seemed to take the boycot as an attack to the product quality rather to an attack to the product marketing, and software, specially when you worked hard and long on it, is like a son to its developer... so when it is criticized it isn't easy to handle.



Anyway, as I said before, I just wanted to express my disappointment about not being able to see new improvements of Moyo Go Studio in the future (not to open old wounds).