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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #21 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 9:35 am 
Judan
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People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized. Some words like poker are names of popular games, and are sometimes not capitalized. Usually when a new game comes out, it is capitalized. Should Go/go be lowercase as it becomes more popular? Is it still a proper noun, or is it the name of a common activity? I don't really know.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #22 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:35 am 
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What do you suggest, John? Go table?
[ for a floor board]

My own habit is to say something like 'traditional go board' or 'the old type of Japanese boards'. This conveys the extra implication that you don't need to have such a board nowadays. I'm sure people in general have a sense that you need to buy the right equipment to do certain Oriental martial arts, and they might feel at first that go has a similar mentality. Fortunately taiji swept away much of the mystique for martial arts, and we can do the same for go.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #23 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:40 am 
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Quote:
People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.


And some people also argue whether it should be 'capitalised' (-ise for words from Latin, -ize for Greek).

I go for uncapitalised go. In general, majuscules seem to be waning everywhere, but I was still startled this morning to see ceo instead of CEO.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #24 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:20 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
What do you suggest, John? Go table?
[ for a floor board]

My own habit is to say something like 'traditional go board' or 'the old type of Japanese boards'. This conveys the extra implication that you don't need to have such a
board nowadays.

That works.
Quote:
Fortunately taiji swept away much of the mystique for martial arts

It did? This is news to me. On the other hand, taiji is Chinese and Chinese culture in general seems to obsess a lot less about equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #25 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:25 am 
Judan
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.


And some people also argue whether it should be 'capitalised' (-ise for words from Latin, -ize for Greek).


I had always assumed (maybe incorrectly) that "capitalise" was from "British English", whereas "capitalize" was from "American English". Another one I've heard before is discrepancy between having one or two "l" characters before "ing" for certain words (eg. labelling vs. labeling).

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #26 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:30 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.


And some people also argue whether it should be 'capitalised' (-ise for words from Latin, -ize for Greek).


I had always assumed (maybe incorrectly) that "capitalise" was from "British English", whereas "capitalize" was from "American English".



Common misconception.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #27 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Koroviev wrote:


Common misconception.


Would you like to elaborate?

Webster's dictionary seems to think that "capitalize" is an acceptable spelling: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalize

It also says that "capitalise" is the "British version of capitalize": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 1305147225

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #28 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:56 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

Pardon my ignorance about the English language, but why should it be? Is chess, bridge, etc? I would have never thought of writing "Go" instead of "go", but then again my mother tongue is Finnish (and in Finnish it is written in lowercase).

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #29 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:07 pm 
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tj86430 wrote:
Kirby wrote:
People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

Pardon my ignorance about the English language, but why should it be? Is chess, bridge, etc? I would have never thought of writing "Go" instead of "go", but then again my mother tongue is Finnish (and in Finnish it is written in lowercase).


If I invented a game and made up a name for it - say "Kirbgame", it would be a proper name for the game, and should be capitalized. When something becomes a common activity ("playing chess"), in my opinion, it starts showing up in lowercase.

I think the same thing happens with store products, sometimes. We don't capitalize "tissue", but when the "Kleenex" brand came out, it was a proper name for the product, and was capitalized. "Kleenex" is such a common brand for tissue that, whether it's correct or not, I've started to see it used synonymously with the word "tissue". In turn, I've started to see kleenex uncapitalized, as well.

It seems to me - and this is just my hypothesis - that when a proper noun starts to become commonplace, it starts being seen with a non-capitalized spelling.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #30 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Koroviev wrote:


Common misconception.


Would you like to elaborate?

Webster's dictionary seems to think that "capitalize" is an acceptable spelling: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalize

It also says that "capitalise" is the "British version of capitalize": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 1305147225


Both are correct in British English now, but (depending on word origin) -ize endings were once the standard in British English. This has gradually changed, and people have come to believe it's an American innovation. Grammar snobs occasionally jump on it as some kind of vulgar Americanism, when in fact it's not.

But as I say, both are now considered correct here, unless perhaps you are over 100 years old or work for the OED.

(This depends on the word though, some, like advertise, are never spelt with a zed.)

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #31 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Koroviev wrote:
...
Both are correct in British English now, but (depending on word origin) -ize endings were once the standard in British English. This has gradually changed, and people have come to believe it's an American innovation. Grammar snobs occasionally jump on it as some kind of vulgar Americanism, when in fact it's not.
...


Interesting. I'm surprised to hear that "-ize" endings were once the standard in British English, and it has gradually changed because people believe it's an "American innovation", and not the other way around.

That's because, most of the time when I spell these types of words, I use "-ize", and thought that "-ise" was more common in British English. Even in this case, I used "capitalize", for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #32 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 3:03 pm 
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Koroviev wrote:
/sense of humour bypass/
How is mentioning Lizard Lick not funny?!

But yeah, I don't know why I thought you were arguing with John instead of just joking.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #33 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 9:54 pm 
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tj86430 wrote:
Kirby wrote:
People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

Pardon my ignorance about the English language, but why should it be? Is chess, bridge, etc? I would have never thought of writing "Go" instead of "go", but then again my mother tongue is Finnish (and in Finnish it is written in lowercase).


One reason to capitalize Go which is peculiar to English is that "go" is one of the most common English verbs, as in "to go to France" or "to go fishing." So calling the board game Go rather than go is a good way to convey what you mean. (In the final analysis, though, I have to agree with John... capitals are dying out.)

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #34 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:07 pm 
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jts wrote:
tj86430 wrote:
Kirby wrote:
People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

Pardon my ignorance about the English language, but why should it be? Is chess, bridge, etc? I would have never thought of writing "Go" instead of "go", but then again my mother tongue is Finnish (and in Finnish it is written in lowercase).


One reason to capitalize Go which is peculiar to English is that "go" is one of the most common English verbs, as in "to go to France" or "to go fishing." So calling the board game Go rather than go is a good way to convey what you mean. (In the final analysis, though, I have to agree with John... capitals are dying out.)

I would think that the noun meaning the game of go and the verb meaning movement from one place to another are easily distinguishable by context. (and if not, one can always clarify by using "game of go" or some other construct like that)

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #35 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:32 am 
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tj86430 wrote:
I would think that the noun meaning the game of go and the verb meaning movement from one place to another are easily distinguishable by context. (and if not, one can always clarify by using "game of go" or some other construct like that)


The name go is a bit of a bummer on search engines etc though.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #36 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:56 am 
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which is why when i use search engines to search for our favorite game, i use "baduk" or "weiqi" for better and more relevant results.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #37 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:01 am 
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Unfortunately it's too late to change the established name for the game, and probably also too late to stop using the word "goban". (Witness how this thread is in a forum called "Gobans and other equipment".)

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #38 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:02 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Famous gobans such as this one do occasionally show up on the market.


Being historical does not automatically make a GO BOARD famous or important. Recall that Genan lost all his money in his shipwreck and tried to recoup it by dishing out 1-dan diplomas left right and centre, hence the derogatory phrase Inseki shodan. It is probable that he signed BOARDS just as freely. This may be an Inseki BOARD.


Quote:
BTW, can anyone translate what is written on that goban?


That's easy. This BOARD says 百戦百勝不如一忍 - "Being victorious one hundred times in one hundred battles is not as good as being forbearing once". This (I think - don't quote me) is from the Chinese poet Huang Tingjian and he goes on with something like "One hundred words and one hundred barbs are not as good as being silent once". After that, rather like the second verses of national anthems, the subsequent lines become hazy in the memory, but it may have been something like "One hundred gobans are not as good as one GO BOARD".

The BOARD in question (if genuine) can be dated post 1830 from Genan's signature where he naughtily styles himself Inseki XI and Dagoushou (= Meijin). I don't know, but I'd be fairly confident that he was still willing to use that style after his shipwreck, since he was so far away from Edo in remote Kyushu. In that case this BOARD would be dated post 1853.


I think insisting on "goban" when we have a perfectly adequate term in English is a bit of an affectation. Why don't those goban people use goishi instead of go stone or goke instead of go bowl? Saying "After the game I put my stones back in the bowl and put the bowl on the goban" is really strange.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #39 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:10 am 
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gowan wrote:
I think insisting on "goban" when we have a perfectly adequate term in English is a bit of an affectation. Why don't those goban people use goishi instead of go stone or goke instead of go bowl? Saying "After the game I put my stones back in the bowl and put the bowl on the goban" is really strange.


I don't know... I wouldn't find it strange if someone said something like, "I had some wasabi the other day, and it was really spicy. I ate some rice to cool down my mouth."

Here, they could have used the term, "Japanese horseradish" instead of wasabi (and why didn't they use something like 飯 instead of "rice"), but now that wasabi's a word that we hear often, it doesn't sound so unusual if someone uses the term.

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 Post subject: Re: Historic Goban/Prices (signed by history famous go playe
Post #40 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:50 pm 
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I would think that the English language has a history of adopting foreign words into itself through wide usage by people using the words when speaking English. Witness how people use the word "ketchup" derived from the Cantonese Chinese dialect for "tomato sauce".

Secondly there are many jargon words in English which are used within specific subjects. I don't see why "goban" cannot be considered at least a jargon word when it is widely used within the go community and well understood by those within the community as being the board which they use to play their favorite game.

But this thread has really digressed from the original subject the thread starter was interested in.

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