An e-mail to admin concerning "Herod"

[Boidhre]

I did also get banned now for "sexist comments". Here is what happened: YellowBell played breakfast and looked pretty good in the middle of the game, so I commented with 2-3 phrases like "wow, girls are not supposed to think that well^^". So as you see I did mark my sentence as "not that serious meant"

Jokes that require emoticons are probably not funny in the first place. Sounds like a reasonable ban to me.

Let's use the word "KGS-reasonable" for otherwise it could be confusing.

When you use any forum or service online you have to play by their rules. Whether you personally agree with them or not is immaterial really. You are always free to not use the service after all if you don't like the rules very much.

[Pippen]

When you use any forum or service online you have to play by their rules. Whether you personally agree with them or not is immaterial really. You are always free to not use the service after all if you don't like the rules very much.

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

[jts]

When you use any forum or service online you have to play by their rules. Whether you personally agree with them or not is immaterial really. You are always free to not use the service after all if you don't like the rules very much.

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

So, try to imagine you have a daughter. And she's playing go at a tournament. And someone is standing behind her, watching. And he says, "Wow, girls are not supposed to think that well." Then he sniggers to make sure everyone understands it's a joke.

I also think the KGS mods are too capricious, and your ban probably had more to do with personalities than principles, but you need to understand that you don't deserve a ton of sympathy.

[Bonobo]

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

You don’t seem to get the point that calling women “girls” is sexist, no matter how funny you believe your remarks to be.

Apparently I’ve been a bit too quick, too judicial—as Uberdude writes, the person on question actually is a girl.

I apologize.

Greetings, Tom

[skydyr]

When you use any forum or service online you have to play by their rules. Whether you personally agree with them or not is immaterial really. You are always free to not use the service after all if you don't like the rules very much.

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

So, try to imagine you have a daughter. And she's playing go at a tournament. And someone is standing behind her, watching. And he says, "Wow, girls are not supposed to think that well." Then he sniggers to make sure everyone understands it's a joke.

I also think the KGS mods are too capricious, and your ban probably had more to do with personalities than principles, but you need to understand that you don't deserve a ton of sympathy.

Depending on the relationship between the people involved and the other people around, the comment can be completely appropriate as gentle ribbing or a humorous compliment, or it can be quite inappropriate. It is of course difficult for an admin to tell which is which without prior knowledge of the parties involved, so I'm not surprised to hear that they would err on the side of caution, especially since other observers wouldn't necessarily take it in the correct context either.

[Boidhre]

Depending on the relationship between the people involved and the other people around, the comment can be completely appropriate as gentle ribbing or a humorous compliment, or it can be quite inappropriate. It is of course difficult for an admin to tell which is which without prior knowledge of the parties involved, so I'm not surprised to hear that they would err on the side of caution, especially since other observers wouldn't necessarily take it in the correct context either.

But that's the thing. It's a public go server not a small club where everyone knows each other and knows what can and cannot be said.

[peppernut]

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

The two aren't mutually exclusive you know. I am trying to think of a situation where telling a woman "you play well for a girl" would be okay if only you smiled when you said it, but I'm not coming up with anything.

[Uberdude]

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

You don’t seem to get the point that calling women “girls” is sexist, no matter how funny you believe your remarks to be.

The player in question is a girl not a woman.

[skydyr]

Depending on the relationship between the people involved and the other people around, the comment can be completely appropriate as gentle ribbing or a humorous compliment, or it can be quite inappropriate. It is of course difficult for an admin to tell which is which without prior knowledge of the parties involved, so I'm not surprised to hear that they would err on the side of caution, especially since other observers wouldn't necessarily take it in the correct context either.

But that's the thing. It's a public go server not a small club where everyone knows each other and knows what can and cannot be said.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you, though maybe I wasn't the most clear on that

[Bill Spight]

Depending on the relationship between the people involved and the other people around, the comment can be completely appropriate as gentle ribbing or a humorous compliment, or it can be quite inappropriate. It is of course difficult for an admin to tell which is which without prior knowledge of the parties involved, so I'm not surprised to hear that they would err on the side of caution, especially since other observers wouldn't necessarily take it in the correct context either.

But that's the thing. It's a public go server not a small club where everyone knows each other and knows what can and cannot be said.

I am going to have to start ignoring this thread. I keep pulling myself in. OTOH, some of my previous remarks seemed to be helpful.

How hard would it be for the admin to send a private message to the player who was perhaps the butt of some sexist remarks and ask, "Is that guy bothering you?"

When I became a bridge director I took a course from the directors of national tournaments in the US. Tournament bridge has complicated laws, and having to rule on possible violations is a common task for a director. We were taught that the first thing to do when making a ruling is to find out what happened. IMHO, that principle applies in this case. If you do not know what can and cannot be said between the people involved, find out. Ask what is going on. Do not make a ruling from ignorance.

[Horibe]

I am going to have to start ignoring this thread. I keep pulling myself in. OTOH, some of my previous remarks seemed to be helpful.

How hard would it be for the admin to send a private message to the player who was perhaps the butt of some sexist remarks and ask, "Is that guy bothering you?"

Just to be clear, huge respect for Bill and his contributions to this thread, but I do not agree with this solution.

I think the comment, in a public forum was horribly sexist. Imagine if such a remark was made about a racial/ethnic stereotype - no bag of emoticons could make the remark ok.

Sure, there are women who might not think this is a big deal, and if they knew the person might laugh it off. But asking that one woman is problematic. First of all, it puts the burden on her to be "that woman" who cannot take a "joke" and gets the "hilarious" guy in trouble. Second, it does nothing for the rest of the women watching who are appalled. Third, the confirmation delay will encourage other "humorists" to make lighthearted mysoginist remarks because anything unfunny, or painful about this can be emoticonned away. Finally, a conversation about the appropriateness of the remark may well ensue in the meantime with both sides saying things that neither want to hear and have nothing to do with go.

[Uberdude]

In a normal game the players can't see the kibitz (unless they look back at it after the game is over) so the admin's job is not to protect the player from things they can't see, but to protect the perceived sensibilities of fellow observers. In fact this game in question was the special Teaching game type so the players could see kibitz, but that's abnormal.

Also if I were concentrating on playing a game I might not notice a message, or if I did I might get annoyed and ignore it.

[Bill Spight]

I am going to have to start ignoring this thread. I keep pulling myself in. OTOH, some of my previous remarks seemed to be helpful.

How hard would it be for the admin to send a private message to the player who was perhaps the butt of some sexist remarks and ask, "Is that guy bothering you?"

Just to be clear, huge respect for Bill and his contributions to this thread, but I do not agree with this solution.

I think the comment, in a public forum was horribly sexist. Imagine if such a remark was made about a racial/ethnic stereotype - no bag of emoticons could make the remark ok.

Sure, there are women who might not think this is a big deal, and if they knew the person might laugh it off. But asking that one woman is problematic. First of all, it puts the burden on her to be "that woman" who cannot take a "joke" and gets the "hilarious" guy in trouble. Second, it does nothing for the rest of the women watching who are appalled. Third, the confirmation delay will encourage other "humorists" to make lighthearted mysoginist remarks because anything unfunny, or painful about this can be emoticonned away. Finally, a conversation about the appropriateness of the remark may well ensue in the meantime with both sides saying things that neither want to hear and have nothing to do with go.

As I said before, I do not play on KGS and do not know the culture. I was basing my remarks on the reactions of skydyr, Boidhre, and others.

Now, whether calling a girl a girl is sexist, or whether a jocular remark saying that she does not fit the sexist stereotype is offensive depends upon the local culture. If it violates the cultural norms of decorum and offends the onlookers, then her opinion does not matter. But if the offensiveness depends upon how she feels, then it does.

Skydyr indicated that it would be difficult for the admin to judge the appropriateness of the remarks without knowing the people involved. Boidhre did not disagree, but said that the admin could not be expected to know "what can and cannot be said." I am assuming that they are both right. In that case, my opinion remains the same. If you don't know the facts of the situation, find out.

[Pippen]

It's a public go server not a small club where everyone knows each other and knows what can and cannot be said.

Do u want a server where people discuss in an aseptic " we just make it right for everyone" style? I do not. I want people to speak up their minds except if they insult people or if they bothering people in an obvious inappropriate way, e.g. if I would have written over 10 moves that this girl sucks or that everyone should come to my new church or whatever. In dubio pro libertate! That should be the guidance. It would make life a lot easier - for the people and for the admins, because the admins could focus more on the real issues. Again: I can understand the admin here and maybe I went too far, but then again: Can I say (during kibitzing) that this girl is pretty or is this already sexual harassment on KGS or vice versa: Can I say that I find her not pretty? It becomes really nitpicking from there. All that is not a real problem, but maybe because of that a nice discussion topic^^.

[uPWarrior]

My opinion on this particular case changed as I read the subsequent posts, so perhaps my misunderstanding was the same as that of the admin.

When I first read "wow, girls are not supposed to think that well^^" I thought that it was a remark regarding that female's ability to think when compared to someone else's. I don't think it is appropriate to state that men are supposed to "think better" than women, so I considered the comment sexist and possibly offensive to the player.
It turns out that the player is really a girl (as in "young"), so the comment is possibly directed to her age and not to her gender. I would consider this to be a compliment rather than an insult ("wow, children of your age don't usually think that well!").

Is is possible that something like this happened with the admin?