2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

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perceval
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by perceval »

ok with me.
So its mw42's turn
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by Loons »

I agree, just continue normally (so mw42 to move).
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by mw42 »

Sorry, Mnemonic.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's not like there are any ko threats.
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by Loons »

I was wondering if they were going to fight this, because making threats here is a bit lossy for us if we win the ko and they kill off most of our aji. Of course, mw42 is a bit stronger than me and is clearly more familiar with the proverb "don't fight early game ko".

An upside of mw42's last move (for them)- perceval has to make the threat follow-through. Any(/only) local response around C5 should be okish, and then we have to live with white (aiming at) splitting Q4 and K4. Anyhow, I'm personally tempted to play d6 (hane against contact) because a small shortage of liberties helps us. Otherwise C6 stops us being pushed down to second line as if we c4. I'll hold off on evaluating our result until my next move.
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by perceval »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
EDIT: unhidden
another hesitation here; When i played the ko i envisoned an approach up top as a not a local move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . a c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i dont think we need to defend on the right, so i looked at a,b;
b is the more natural to grab the corner but i dont want to get sealed in by :w22: at a; We have the atari at c but i dont think we can break through:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1: \n :b27: connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 8 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 2 3 6 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
of course a weaknees at a remains and we have a big corner, and :white: has 2 sente at b

On the other hand with a we are outside BUT it would be a shame to lose the corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1: \n black toasted ?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 6 O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 5 7 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
continuations doesnt look good:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Prisoners: :w1: :b1: \n black toasted (there is a ko but W takes first)?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O X O O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 4 1 O X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Prisoners: :w1: :b1: \n black toasted II?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O X O O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 O X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
unless ... (i am thinking as i type obviously)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 9 O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
and then:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O X X O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 9 4 O X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
maybe B wins here however i am not 100% sure of this sequence alot of things could go wrong (for example another :w30:) + B is sealed anyway after a
so i am sticking with option b
Last edited by perceval on Tue May 24, 2011 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by Mnemonic »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The hane doesn't work so I just going to extend. I think black got the better end of the deal here. We have some endgame reductions but they have development on both sides and sente.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 The hane
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
No real choice, much as I want to get something like N3 or O3, we have a gote result over here. It's going to be hard to deal with our weak group, having to push here makes it weaker. I have a sneaking suspicion we have to push again before jumping, not that it's my decision.
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by mw42 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm trying to pick a fight here. I want perceval to hane. If he doesn't then at least we get to push black to the second line.
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by perceval »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
mm strange i was expecting the obvious hane at a.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i could hane myself now at b but in fact it looks good to take sente: to deprieve us of the hane they will have to play again in the same area which will be gote. So i approach from an empty side, and we'll see later what to do with the bottom left
a little tewari to confort me: if they play later at a it would be has if we tenukied after the hane but the continued by extending which would just be strange
Guys, i am curious about the whole corner business, could you unhide your comments than can be unhidden ? i'll try to put together a sgf with the various comments, should be hilarious (or very sad) :lol:
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mw42
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by mw42 »

This corner looks odd. I think my keima wasn a mistake. Anyway, I think Mnemonic should try attaching to the stone to make a moyo on the left.
I haven't been commenting much, but you can peak at all my comments, perceval, if you are curious.

Excepting the above comment and following comments as well, of course. :)
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Mnemonic
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by Mnemonic »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We have tengen so we pincer. I don't know if this is a good rule of thumb, but you are supposed to start fight and pincers are a fine way of doing so. I choose the 2 space high because I like pincering, I don't like getting counterpincered. :mrgreen:
I don't like unhiding post since they seem to clutter the thread. I'll post some links to post that are ok to read and mildly funny:

1
2
3
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Loons
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by Loons »

What on earth happened to the board in the last twelve hours. argh.
I'll go unhide some posts, I'll mark it on the post.

Not hidden:
A diversion

I'm leery of unhiding any posts that still have relevancy to the game. Maybe once we make midgame.
Last edited by Loons on Thu May 26, 2011 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm speculating when and if I can work something like this in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Maybe if we can jump again on top sometime. I'm only vaguely familiar with mw42's move (in context of 3-3 invasion joseki: I think Emerus vs Redundant 2H had a cursory rundown of it if you're profoundly interested).
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by perceval »

it is mw42's turn is that correct ? as there was a mix up last time i am not sure
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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Post by mw42 »

Sorry for the delay, I must have fallen asleep.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: :w1: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't like our last move, but I don't see anything better now then to go with so we're stuck.
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