77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:21 am

Robinz this is my last move for tonight(it's 4:15), but I should be on tomorrow to respond when I wake up, and later in the night for me as well. I do start work some time soon, which may encroach on my late nights which I think are your mid-morning/afternoons, but I'll play as much as I can. Also, you and Topaz are both English...I have my eye on you sneaky brits.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 robinz vs DIV - Move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:32 am

No problem - 2 or 3 moves a day is probably as much as I'd usually want to manage anyway. Most of moves will probably take me a while anyway, I'm quite a slow player anyway, with the only exception being the first few moves, because I usually know at least roughly what I'm doing then

No move yet, but some thoughts:

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:41 am

This sequences isn't much different to previous ones I've posted, but White gets slightly thicker and Black is slightly smaller in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 robinz vs DIV - Move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 6 X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 9 1 O . 0 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 7 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Some useful further reading on Black's corner: http://senseis.xmp.net/?L2Group

Also, some further interesting variations. The solid connection at

is considered normally better than the hanging connection because of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 robinz vs DIV - later endgame .. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 1 4 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 2 . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | X 5 X O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | 7 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's gote, and not that huge (though White can take

in sente and leave

for later - it's still useful to play to there for the left hand side), but big enough that the solid connection is better in most cases...

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:12 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 robinz vs DIV - Move 16 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OK, I'm going with my first instinct. I can't be sure my reading is correct (I know reading is one aspect of the game I definitely need to work on, and I'm trying to be "honest" with this game and not actually play out hypothetical sequences on the board or make lots of diagrams purely to help me see possible future positions), but I think my concerns were unfounded. Firstly, I'm sure this is in fact sente, for after:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W robinz vs DIV - Move 16 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm sure that B19 will kill the corner if black tenukis.

Secondly, while there are a lot of lines and things get a bit beyond my reading ability, I think I have plenty of chances - later, if not now - to threaten the life of the corner even after black plays another move (B19 seems most likely). There certainly isn't much eyespace there - the only thing I have to watch is that my enclosing groups don't get too short on liberties (something I have often gone wrong in before when trying a bit too hard to kill things!).

Finally, I mentioned that I was a bit worried about black playing at D15. But, after the hane-connect sequence, I've still got 5 liberties, and what is more, after cutting at C15 I am threatening to capture the D15 stone in a ladder towards the bottom-right, which at the moment is in my favour (clearly something to watch as the situation develops, though). And if black saves that stone then I can definitely move on to kill the corner outright. (It might become a capturing race in which black has an eye and I don't, but even then I think I have so many more liberties that I still win it easily.)

My opponent also has the following sequence to cut (say from the position above, although it could be played now as well):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B robinz vs DIV - Move 16 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- it's a bit beyond my reading ability (without cheating) to see exactly what happens here, but his group still seems to be in enough trouble that I should be able to get something favorable out of it.

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:49 am

Ok, had kind of a busy day. And was going to this morning before i got busier...but, I don't know right now. I need to do some good thinkin and less drinkin. I might move later on this evening. But it might wait until tomorrow. Here are some thoughts though:

Alright, I feel like I was overplaying with this invasion at this point, though I am almost glad he made this move instead of coming up at me below. This might be too tough for me to fight out, I am not sure. I have thought about some other moves that could be beneficial. Here are some of the potential options I have been thinking of, in no particular order.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 robinz vs DIV - Move 16 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 1 n . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . d . . e . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . m . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . f c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . g l . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . h . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . j . . i k . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Some of these seem much better than other's obviously. I am just undecided about this fight in the top left after moving in too far.

here is something I might try:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 robinz vs DIV - Move 16 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b are potential miai for me to either escape or play low. Or so I think. So I will probably try this move.

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:46 am

I guess yesterday/today wasn't very good for you either. No problem if so, but looking forward to resuming soon. Meanwhile, for the audience (if we still have one), some more of my thoughts:

I'm not sure why DIV hasn't posted a move yet, to be honest - I've come to the conclusion that the following sequence is more or less forced for black (it helps that, when going through some games of mine I played last month, I found the same corner situation, with me on the other side - although I'd left it until much later in the game):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- Black is now definitely alive, but making very few points, and meanwhile I have sente. Indeed, I can (and my opponent did in that earlier game I found) play a further forcing move against the corner at B14 - but surely the loss of a ko threat there is much more important than the potential extra point or two, so I'm not going to play it but finally take a big point elsewhere. I'm still looking at wanting to build up the left-hand side (with a play somewhere near the star point) and the bottom (at or near near G4), as well as a wedge in my opponent's right-hand side at R11 - but right now I feel (with my no doubt haywire DDK intuition

) that the biggest move will be a pincer on my opponent's F17 stone. The reason I feel this is biggest right now is that, if my opponent gets in a move in that area, they will have a base for that stone, as well as potentially quite a lot of points along the top in general (although some weaknesses will still remain). This in turn will severely blunt the effectiveness of my D16/17/18 wall. On the other hand, if I get a move in at about J16 (I don't actually know which pincer will be best, but as I type I think this is the point I'm most likely to play at - I don't want to play too close to my wall, and I feel a high pincer will be better placed for attack than a low one), then his stone will have no base and will come under some kind of attack - he's forced to run out, and I hope to make some territory on the top or left while putting pressure on it - and my wall looks a whole lot more effective. Precisely what happens I don't know (and it will depend a lot on how my opponent handles it), but I ought to be able to get some benefit, and perhaps even end in sente to play somewhere else. If so, I feel very happy about what's happening, and that my opponent's choice to invade the corner was a big mistake

To go back a bit, I said "more or less forced" about the above sequence, but black could instead try to play at C15 instead of either 1 or 3. The natural response is at D15, but then black will go back and play the sequence in the the diagram, where the C15/D15 exchange is very good for Black - a bigger corner, and with the possibility, whether now or later, of the cut at D14. So it will probably be best for me, if Black does play C15, to call his bluff by playing B17, completely removing all eyespace in the corner, but allowing him to run away at D15. I'm sure that Black being on the run with no eyes can't be good for him, but if it happens it remains to be seen how well I can handle it.

Incidentally - and I promise I'm not saying this merely to curry favour with our one observer so far

- but last night I decided to watch some of topazg's videos (which may well have contributed to some of the thoughts I've put down above, as well), and have found that he's not a fan of the slide I played in the bottom-right when I have played the 4-4 in the bottom-left. Oh well, I guess I know what his earlier comments were about now then

(I can see his point, and of course defer to his vastly greater knowledge of the game than mine, but I'm not sure it can really be called a big mistake at this stage, and certainly not in a game between two 12ks.)

Sorry all for the huge wall of text - but I'm assuming the above will save me from having to type much explanation for my next 3 or 4 moves at least. Unless my opponent does something crazy and unexpected, of course...

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:56 am

Hehe, mentioned in person, how can I not respond

Firstly, I think Black should play at

first to prevent getting sealed in like this, especially as White can bend around in sente too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

More points, retains the ability to crawl and jump in the endgame as White cannot bend around in sente any more. However, the descent to the 2-1 at the top left to live is a really good shape principle to remember as well, so good spot for that.

robinz wrote:Incidentally - and I promise I'm not saying this merely to curry favour with our one observer so far - but last night I decided to watch some of topazg's videos (which may well have contributed to some of the thoughts I've put down above, as well), and have found that he's not a fan of the slide I played in the bottom-right when I have played the 4-4 in the bottom-left. Oh well, I guess I know what his earlier comments were about now then (I can see his point, and of course defer to his vastly greater knowledge of the game than mine, but I'm not sure it can really be called a big mistake at this stage, and certainly not in a game between two 12ks.)

I'm not so sure I'd call it a particularly big mistake. In a game like this, I just find it a bit inflexible, but it's very playable, at least in my mind. In this game, it's also influenced by Black's shimari in the top right, and solidifying his lower right position like this gives a lot more potential for him to expand (for example Q10) the whole right side.

EDIT: Interesting alternatives:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can double hane here to seal in more effectively, but risks the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course White gets good profit anyway, but it's a complicated trade to evaluate, so White needs to be aware of it.

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:32 am

Ok, I had dead internet yesterday, but had thought about some things. I'll post this move, but thoughts will have to wait until I'm not on a netbook.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 robinz vs DIV - Move 17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:04 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 robinz vs DIV - Move 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm, well I hadn't expected that - I did briefly consider it, but didn't see that the obvious move brought me any disadvantage, and still don't. I'm not really sure it changes much (other than letting me capture a stone for free) - Black still has to defend that corner, and all of my previous comments still seem to apply. I'm presuming we'll now see (perhaps I should put it in a trigger, but DIV has surprised me enough times already that I'm nervous doing this - I can't really work out what he's trying to achieve by playing D18):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- followed by either B19 or C15, with the same continuations as I talked about yesterday. Of course, it's the same position except that I have a stone at C19 instead of C18. (This probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - if Black, as I expect, descends to B19 from here, I will of course play at C15 and not bother playing C19; that's not necessarily an eye yet anyway at D18, and those stones should be strong enough for the time being. C15 defends the cut in sente, so I want to do it as soon as possible.)

The above was all I was going to write, but I have just noticed that Black may be able to cause me a few difficulties this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O 5 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

-- 5 manages to break the ladder against the D15 stone, as well as taking away a liberty from the my stones. However, I can deal with this in at least one way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc robinz vs DIV - Move 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X O 3 X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | 7 5 X O X 4 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- setting up a capturing race which it looks like I will win. So I think there's nothing to worry about there. (If a bunch of hidden posts follow this then I know I'll have misread

)

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:17 am

Hmm - Black can make things a bit tricky from that last diagram by playing at B15:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | O O X O X X . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- and now if I simply capture the stone I lose the race:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc robinz vs DIV - Move 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 4 6 O 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 5 X X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | O O X O X X . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | 1 X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thankfully, I have a more intelligent move at B19, instead of taking the stone, and then Black's dead. There are lots and lots of possible variations here, and I'm sure I haven't seen them all. So I'll save detailed analysis for if any of this actually happens - but I think I have resources available against anything Black chooses to throw at me.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:40 am

@robinz

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:09 am

topazg wrote:@robinz

Think how much less reading you'd have to do if C18 was at C15 Far less headaches! Don't take this as a criticism at all as it isn't - it's always fun when things get into complicated-land to have a look-see and think whether it could have been avoided.

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:02 am

alright, still stuck with this whatever-forsaken netbook. Tomorrow I'll at least have access to a mac, and should be playing some Go against a new to the game player, should be fun. I'll post thoughts and let him look at the game, should be a good experience.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 robinz vs DIV - Move 19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:35 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 robinz vs DIV - Move 20; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I added a bit to the text to count prisoners, now that we have one. There's probably a tidier way of doing it though...

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 robinz vs DIV - Move 21; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ok, sorry for no thoughts. I decided to try to make this corner work. Here's a few possibilities:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm22 robinz vs DIV; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is one of more likely options, I think I can get life from this even if he throws in, though not sure exactly. There's also the possibility he won't block at 5 which means I might be able to get out or poke and cut. We'll see I guess.

Thanks for patience robinz and others, computer situation has gotten odd in the past week.

Life In 19x19

77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]