92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

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Redundant
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Not sure why black is doing this. I'm ignoring his ladder breaker no matter what, so making it bigger doesn't help, and he's not gaining from this exchange, as far as I can see.
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emerus
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . W X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Meh. this ladder breaker isn't too bad for me. It could transpose into a 3-3 invasion. I debated trading a ladder breaker of my own, but my hands would be tied in the local fight.

I chose this way of killing the ladder because it leaves black with worse shape on the top.

Note that black still had forcing moves at k18 and b16.
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emerus
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Aphelion
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Aphelion »

Surely the outside hane is bigger?
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . W X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm going for sabaki here. I rejected P3, because after the connection at r4, black has very nice thickness, and white is still liable to be bullied. I also didn't like the crosscut, because after black ataris down with r5 and s5, white will be taking a small corner, and black gets good influence down the right.
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emerus
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I left my last few posts blank because up until now, it's been a very standard sequence. My goal is to keep sente in order to extend from a hoshi stone and perhaps build up a small framework.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 1 O 2 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A common san san under 4-4 transposition. Due to the weakness in blacks wall, a black move at A is big. I can't expect to retain sente in this variation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 7 5 4 X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 1 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I wanted this, but I am not suprised that my opponent rejected it. It's a sente wall for black and white is just pushed around.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . W X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If white 2, then black 3. Black is thick enough in the corner to tenuki and 3 is a nice dual purpose extension/pincer. If my opponent was willing to play this however, I expect that white would have played at p3 in the first place.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . W X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This seems reasonable for both players. White gets out with a safe group but the damage to his corner has been done and black fit in his extension from d4.
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Redundant
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Solid, thick. I don't want to give black forcing moves here. My group isn't unassailable, but it's not going to be a burden in the near future.

I'm fine with this result from the ladder breaker. Black could have gone for sealing me into the corner with the other hane, and gotten great influence.
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emerus
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think the variation in my last post might be a little better for white.
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Mnemonic
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Mnemonic »

@Redundant
Redundant wrote: I'm going for sabaki here. I rejected P3, because after the connection at r4, black has very nice thickness, and white is still liable to be bullied. I also didn't like the crosscut, because after black ataris down with r5 and s5, white will be taking a small corner, and black gets good influence down the right.
Sensei's Library doesn't give a very precise definition of Sabaki (although it admits it's kinda hard). What would you define sabaki as? Is it just playing weird moves, hoping to spot a Tesuji/hoping that the opponent messes up so that you get a favorable position from an unfavorable start?
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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Loons
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Loons »

For mnemonic:
I would describe sabaki as tactics used when out-numbered or out-muscled locally, especially characterized by a willingness to sacrifice some stones to gain a flexible shape with others. Black`s connection is not sabaki as he can no longer afford to lose any of the stones. If black`s next move does not fix those stones (eg by forming a base, which is very very likely) then his sequence will be described as "heavy" (where 'light' and 'sabaki' mean the same or similar).
Very relatedly, for Redundant:
Could you describe the sort of sabaki sequence you were anticipating? (After your connection I doubt anything local is going to be called sabaki...)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 A precut diagram
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------[/go]
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by EdLee »

@Aphelion
Aphelion wrote:Surely the outside hane is bigger?
Why? Cash is good.:)
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Post by EdLee »

Redundant wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 1 b . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . W O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Solid, thick. My group isn't unassailable, but it's not going to be a burden in the near future.
W's shape after :wc: does not feel thick at all; it feels heavy, exactly the opposite of W's original intention of playing sabaki.
It is immediately a burden. In the game B played (a), but maybe a tighter pincer like :b1: or (b) is more severe and even better.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Shaddy »

Loons wrote:For mnemonic:
I would describe sabaki as tactics used when out-numbered or out-muscled locally, especially characterized by a willingness to sacrifice some stones to gain a flexible shape with others. Black`s connection is not sabaki as he can no longer afford to lose any of the stones. If black`s next move does not fix those stones (eg by forming a base, which is very very likely) then his sequence will be described as "heavy" (where 'light' and 'sabaki' mean the same or similar).
Very relatedly, for Redundant:
Could you describe the sort of sabaki sequence you were anticipating? (After your connection I doubt anything local is going to be called sabaki...)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 A precut diagram
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------[/go]
Addition to Loons's question:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 A precut diagram
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ , . . . . 1 O X . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------[/go]
In particular, what's the answer for this?
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Loons wrote: Very relatedly, for Redundant:
Could you describe the sort of sabaki sequence you were anticipating? (After your connection I doubt anything local is going to be called sabaki...)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go][/hide][/quote]

Also to Shaddy
[hide][sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[A precut diagram]DT[2011-01-11]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]AW[op][pq]AB[pp][qq]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/

A precut diagram]PL[W]
;C[My biggest idea is to not get sealed into the corner, and not to give him good influence.]
(;B[oq]
;W[pr]
;B[or]
;W[qp]
;B[po]
;W[qr]
;B[rq]
;W[qo]
(;B[rr]
;W[pn]
;B[oo]
;W[on]
;B[no]
;W[pj]C[I'm fine with this result. The cut at r6 is gote for black.])
(;B[qn]
;W[np]C[Black is burdened with dealing with the q6 ladder, which works for me. He also has to worry about the p2 stones, and the r3 stones.]))
(;B[oq]
;W[pr]
;B[qr]
;W[po]
;B[qp]
;W[nq]
;B[or]
;W[nr]
;B[ps]
;W[nn]))[/sgf-full][/hide][/go]
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