#147 Marcus vs 1986

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illluck
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by illluck »

1986's game move is sente (so is almost any other local move).

I don't agree with 1986's explanation diagram, though. For one, that result is not gote for him. For another, if he thinks that's a gote result, what is the difference between that and the game move?

Edit: also, in the explanation diagram, seems like 41 should be at 42 instead.
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Marcus
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O 2 . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I ... don't get it ... I thought maybe I'd missed something here, but I can't see the danger. Sure, I have to respond ... but if I do manage to get a ko going, this is a waste of a huge ko threat.

So, I'll respond, and wait to see what he does next.
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1986
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . 3 O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
well he saw that comming lol,
i shifted my focus to my old inside weak group
i like this moves because it picks up some free points its sente, and my group is not in danger so i dont have to worry

as long as the ball is on my side of the court i can find big endgame moves and block off some points, because there is not that many open areas left on the board. its crunch time!
:study:
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by schultz »

illluck wrote:
1986's game move is sente (so is almost any other local move).

I don't agree with 1986's explanation diagram, though. For one, that result is not gote for him. For another, if he thinks that's a gote result, what is the difference between that and the game move?

Edit: also, in the explanation diagram, seems like 41 should be at 42 instead.
And I wonder why I'm so bad at tsumego... haha. Thanks illluck - I was missing the simple obviousness that Marcus needed to respond because of the capture race with that group.

I do agree with your statement, though. And Marcus' statement.

Seeing 1986's last comment - was he hoping to trick Marcus into thinking he'd made a bad move? An interesting play, if you don't mind burning ko threats.
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Unicorn
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by Unicorn »

Black should just play like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | 4 6 . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | 3 2 O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | 5 1 . . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If black tries to live in the corner:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 7 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O X O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . 9 X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . 3 8 , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . 1 O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
He simply fails, so white just gets free points.

Also, his outside forcing moves aren't worth anything.
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Marcus
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Flat out mistake. Black cannot live in the corner.
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1986
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O X O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
this is pretty much a asking move i wanna see how he plays, maybe there is a chance to make sabaki in the corner. it all really depends on his response... its late im about to go to bed, goodnight :salute:
standing still means going backwards
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Marcus
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O C O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't see what he gets from this.
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Marcus
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by Marcus »

Not sure if you caught my move? It's been a while ...
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Marcus
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by Marcus »

1986 has not been on the forums in a month. I hope he's ok.
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1986
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by 1986 »

im back sorry for the delay i had a family emergency, i haven't played go in about 2 months, but im ready when you are :rambo:
standing still means going backwards
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schultz
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by schultz »

1986 wrote:im back sorry for the delay i had a family emergency, i haven't played go in about 2 months, but im ready when you are :rambo:
It's your move then! ;)

I was disappointed to see this go on hiatus, but family emergencies happen, so it is very understandable. I hope everything has been worked out for you now, 1986!
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1986
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O 7 . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
after a quick study and replay of the game i think i got my mojo back lol
my first thought was
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O C O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . 7 , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but thats not the important side because i can easily sacrifice those corner stones, and this is a good move because it must be responded to or else i can atari and gain alot of points in the corner.

so far its not looking so bad, its good to be back in the game with a sound mind and a clear head, im happy again :D lets play some GO!
standing still means going backwards
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by Marcus »

Welcome back!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . 8 . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Let's see if I remember what I'm doing here ...
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1986
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Re: #147 Marcus vs 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm140 Prisoners: :b2: :w2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . O . , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O O . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X . 9 O . O X . X X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
this threatens the cut with good sente and it solidifies this group making it stronger
i'm thinking this best for me
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm148 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . X . . X . X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O X . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . O 4 , O X X . . O O X X O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O 3 O 2 . O O . X O O 6 O . . . . |
$$ | . O X . 1 O . O X . X X O 5 7 X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . X X O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . O . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . O O X . X . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X O O . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X O O O X X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X O X O X X . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O . X O O O O . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:rambo:
standing still means going backwards
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