#247 tentano v. hailthorn

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Bill Spight
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Bill Spight »

White's play is a study in what not to do. IMO, White has fallen nearly a stone behind.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . b O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . X a X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
tentano wrote: :white: (a) seems to be the quintessential kyu move.
tentano wrote:The problem with these forecasts, of course, is that they can be completely wrong beyond the first move.
:white: (b) is an utter disaster
White's play is a study in what not to do.
Hi tentano,
Hmm, :white: (a) is the only move here, but you discarded it as bad. (This is not so good.)
At the same time, you also consider your own analysis could be wrong even past 1 move. (This is better.)

From my experience, and I know of at least two other friends -- all around the range (SDK...1dan) in Go --
at some point, we all had the same epiphany: "I don't know anything!" (in this case, about Go.)
It's a brilliant feeling. It frees you greatly.

This moment is not so easy to come by, from my experience (in Go, and in a few other areas).
For one of the friends mentioned above, he had been taking pro lessons for about 1 year before he had the moment. (He was about 2k-1k level before he started pro lessons.)
For me, in Go, it happened a little sooner.
For me, in another field, this eureka moment happened not just once, but many times, over the course of many years.
My most recent "I don't know anything" moment (in this other field) happened after 25 years of study. :)

I hope at some point, you also experience this moment.
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by tentano »

@Uberdude
In the first diagram, I think white is forced to live miserably while squeezed between the corner and a black wall which projects influence everywhere.

In the second, I think white will end up eyeless, fleeing up, while black gets to consolidate a lot of territory.

In the third, I think white will shut off some of black and project influence to the center.
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by tentano »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , 1 . 9 7 . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can't think of anything which really invalidates my intended plan, so I'll just have to follow it and see if my opponent can do it for me.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi tentano, a glimpse of the hidden treasures awaiting you:
tentano wrote:In the first diagram, I think white is forced to live miserably while squeezed between the corner and a black wall which projects influence everywhere.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 4 5 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 3 X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Another view:
actually black is being absurd and overplaying and it's awesome for white.
tentano wrote:In the second, I think white will end up eyeless, fleeing up, while black gets to consolidate a lot of territory.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 4 X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Another view:
tentano's 2nd diagram is even worse for black
tentano wrote:In the third, I think white will shut off some of black and project influence to the center.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 1 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 2 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Another view:
. :w1: is an utter disaster
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Sorry for the lag! It's been that time of the year. I had to say this in my other game, too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , 1 . 9 7 . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm sure this is a mistake, but my goal isn't really to kill yet. I want to see how this goes. It could become a goal, but it's not as of now. My only goal now is to profit from his weak group.
Slava Ukraini!
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by tentano »

No worries, around new year is hectic for most people.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm13 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . 7 5 . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Hm.

Not the expected response.

I half-heartedly plan the following, but it looks so nice for me that I expect it doesn't go that way.

I really just want this to live in sente so I can play elsewhere.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . W 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 6 . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 5 . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can't really see any clear alternatives, so I'll have to hope it goes roughly as planned.
I'm pretty sure J7 is too adventurous without first pushing at P8.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 2 . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . W 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 6 . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 5 . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm not sure this result is as good as tentano thinks it is. Black is getting forth line territory everywhere, he's damaging the J4 stone, and his group is still not alive.

I think jumping to :w4: directly would have been a better idea. Exchanging this move and :w2: for :b1: and :b3: seems bad for white. It may strengthen him some, but it strengthens black much more.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Hmm, ( :w1: - :b2: ) common bad habit.
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Loons
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm13 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 0 . 6 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X c 7 5 a 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 2 b X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Given the circumstances, 22 because of a b c aji?
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Post by EdLee »

Loons wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Given the circumstances, :w1: ... ?
Is :w1: also aji keshi ?
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Loons
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Loons »

EdLee wrote:
Loons wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Given the circumstances, :w1: ... ?
Is :w1: also aji keshi ?
I felt like :w1: was necessary to support white moving out. Somehow.
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

Loons wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Loons wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Given the circumstances, :w1: ... ?
Is :w1: also aji keshi ?
I felt like :w1: was necessary to support white moving out. Somehow.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . b . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O O O d . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . c . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think this directly makes it harder for black to deal with the aji of both white stones at the same time. White's also liable to become extremely heavy, so I want to play something nice and loose that tries to stay a little lighter. It has a nice followup at A as well.

As I look longer, though, I'm starting to see the virtues of starting with B. Black built a moyo, white reduced it a bit, there's still aji, let's move on. Later, white can aim at C, and something near D would be o-o-yose.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Loons, skydyr, 2 more candidates for W.
( Very little reading; lazy & tired. Also, White looks so unhappy :( . )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . C . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Loons
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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Post by Loons »

Emphasis white is not happy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X 2 X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black will answer 1 with 2. 3 is sente against the stones on the right, white's heavy group is no longer afraid, white hasn't out-and-out killed J4 yet. Because of 1, there's no sense of a cut at 'a'. Why are any alternatives better than this?
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