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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #41 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:42 pm 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Didn't think of this before. Now, E12 and J15 are miai for me. Even if he takes E12 with his next move, I'll then just play F11. He still has to eat my lone stone, and then I'll be able to turn and wreak havoc on the left group. This is not going to end well for black.
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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #42 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Posts: 428
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 5
Rank: KGS 1dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I will invite a ko. I think it's viable for white to play the ko but I'm not opposed to sacrificing more in the corner in order to influence the rest of the board.
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #43 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:56 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1222
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Rank: KGS 4k
GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
emerus wrote:
I will invite a ko. I think it's viable for white to play the ko but I'm not opposed to sacrificing more in the corner in order to influence the rest of the board.


Not for players:
What ko?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black cannot play at a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . a 1 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #44 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1]DT[2011-01-11]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]CR[ie]AW[fa][ha][bb][gb][hb][ib][bc][cc][dc][ec][gc][dd][ed][gd][fe][he][ie][ff][dg][fg][fh][op][lq][oq][pq]AB[ba][cb][db][eb][fb][jb][fc][ic][cd][fd][hd][pd][ce][ee][ge][cf][ef][gf][hf][eg][dp][pp][qp][jq][qq]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/

Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1]PL[W]
(;CR[ie])
(;W[]C[Here are a couple variations. The key points are:

I laugh at the possible ko. It's so many steps for black, and ko fighting favors the stronger player. Also, if I win, he's basically screwed.

I've gone over the basic ideas in the variations. There are other possible moves, but they're largely identical to what I've shown.

I have to play the extension, or the ponnuki is too nice on black. Also, this is a handi game, and I want to complicate.]
(;B[id]
;W[if]
(;B[hg]
;W[ig]
;B[hh]
;W[ea]C[There is no ko, and my floating stones will be fine, as black has two weak groups in the area to push on. also note how black's upper left is weak.]
(;B[ca]
;W[ab]
;B[de]
;W[aa]C[I eat the corner. ])
(;B[ih]
(;W[kf])
(;W[jd]
;B[jc]
;W[kd]C[I also like this.])))
(;B[ea]
;W[ca]
;B[ga]
;W[hg]C[The same bad ko for black.]))
(;B[ea]
;W[ca]
;B[ga]
;W[id]C[This is a horrible ko for black. I don't even need threats.]
;B[da]
;W[fa]
;B[]
;W[]
;B[ga])))[/sgf-full]
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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #45 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Was liked: 5
Rank: KGS 1dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mmmh, good move. I seem to be playing this game like a normal game, I'm not really going that far past first instinct - maybe I should have taken a more fair handicap. ^^

There are some ways that black can fight on the outside but none look good. We'll sacrifice some more then....
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #46 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What is this I don't even. This way I get the best of both worlds. I'll force him into heavy shape if he tries to save his 3 stones, and then nom one of his stones near the edge.
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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #47 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:57 am 
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Rank: KGS 1dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry for the delay.

I took some time away from this game to enjoy my last days of winter break. I've made several bad moves and lost a ton in these exchanges but I don't feel like it's a lost game by any stretch. I'm fixing the top position with a thick, though probably slow move.
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #48 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

NOM.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #49 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:43 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm vaguely curious about this. I can't answer it readily as black, but I've only given it a cursory examination. I guess T19 isn't really urgent so black will play on the left anyway.

Edit: Relatedly, as black I would probably play here

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Pers. Obs.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #50 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:45 am 
Oza

Posts: 2977
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KGS: MssrBlanc 2k
DGS: Hyperpape 5k
OGS: Hyperpape 7k
K17 doesn't seem particularly thick to me. White can't or won't do anything right away, but that group is subject to attack.

In any case, those stones were just hanging off of a live white group. I think that so long as white can't capture them on a large scale, it's not a priority to help them. I could be wrong about that--I often give up on stones too easily.

_________________
When you think your opponent has made a mistake, that's when you should be the most cautious.
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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #51 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:16 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 428
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 5
Rank: KGS 1dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry, I plan on posting more detailed explanations eventually. I've just been using my allotted go time with more tsumego and study.

This move is urgent and I mean super urgent!

Here is when I should have helped this group!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is black stone is sente vs whites group.

I was a bit infatuated with Lee Seedol's "ladder game" when I played the other variation and I thought that I might know it better than my opponent. White's j15 caught me completely by suprised.
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #52 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:16 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:) I'm missing some variations here, but there aren't any where I don't get something good out of this cut.
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1]DT[2011-01-22]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]CR[di]AW[fa][ha][bb][gb][hb][ib][bc][cc][dc][ec][gc][dd][ed][gd][fe][he][ie][ff][if][dg][fg][hg][fh][op][lq][oq][pq]AB[ba][cb][db][eb][fb][jb][fc][ic][jc][cd][fd][hd][pd][ce][ee][ge][je][cf][ef][gf][hf][eg][di][dp][pp][qp][jq][qq]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/

Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1]PL[W]
;CR[di]
;W[eh]
(;B[dh]
;W[cg]
(;B[bg]
;W[ch]
(;B[bh]
;W[ci]
(;B[bi]
;W[cj]C[Black can play this way, but it's painful.])
(;B[cj]
(;W[ej])
(;W[dj]C[nom.])))
(;B[ci]
;W[bh]
;B[bf]
;W[bi]
;B[bj]
(;W[cj]C[This is no good.]
;B[dj]
;W[ck]
;B[bk]
;W[cl]
;B[bl])
(;W[bk]
;B[cj]
;W[aj]
(;B[bl])
(;B[ck]
;W[bl]C[I crawl, but eat the corner.]))))
(;B[ch]
;W[bg]
;B[bh]
;W[df]
;B[de]
;W[bf]C[Black dies])
(;B[df]
;W[bg]
(;B[bh]
;W[bf]
;B[be]
;W[bd]C[I wi])
(;B[bf]
;W[bi]
;B[bh]
;W[ch]
;B[ci]
;W[ah]
;B[bj]
;W[cj]
(;B[bk]
;W[dj])
(;B[dj]
(;W[ck]C[This doesn't work so well.]
;B[bk]
;W[cl]
;B[bl]
;W[cm]
;B[bm]
;W[bd]
;B[aj]
;W[ai]
;B[af]
;W[ae]
;B[ag])
(;W[bk]
;B[ck]
;W[aj]
;B[bl]
;W[cj]C[This is fine for me.]
;B[]
;W[]
;B[bj]
;W[bd]
;B[ak]
;W[be]
;B[ai]
;W[de]C[Because I don't need the ko.])))
(;B[ch]
;W[bf]
;B[be]
;W[bd])))
(;B[cg]
;W[dh]
;B[ch]
;W[ci]
;B[cj]
;W[bi]C[Black can play like this, but ...
]
;B[bj]
;W[dj]
;B[ei]
;W[ej]
;B[ai]
;W[bh]
;B[bg]
;W[fi]
;B[ah]
;W[di]
;B[cl]C[He has to connect underneath.]))[/sgf-full]
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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #53 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:04 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 428
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 5
Rank: KGS 1dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I had been reading this out without blacks last move and I was going to play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would like to have avoiding being pushed low like this. But with d11 in place, it's not a problem so we'll play the more solid connection.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #54 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:27 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . W O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The connection here is sente. I'll then approach his bottom left corner, because his top left stones are still harassable. I've also got aims to approach on the top right.
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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #55 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:54 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 428
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 5
Rank: KGS 1dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #56 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:57 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Cut first, cut second, cut third, ask questions later.
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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #57 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:40 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 428
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 5
Rank: KGS 1dan
KGS: emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O B O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 1 O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You can offer triggers :)
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #58 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
EDIT: Accidental double post.


Last edited by Redundant on Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #59 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:48 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 907
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 100
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like to leave your choices open :)
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)
Post #60 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:20 pm 
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To Redundant, and also Emerus IF redundant says it's ok.
Now that it's too late to matter:

Didn't you miss black playing a strategically timed B16 in your considered variations ? I felt Emerus' move (ie D11) was fine and that perhaps you both missed the significance of a well-timed B16 sente. But, my laptop is crashing if I do things like "use the keyboard" too much, so I'll leave this question sort of open, rather than elucidate any diagrams myself.

Also, give my apologies to Shaddy for escaping our game the other day. My laptop crashes if I try to leave a message on kgs. Laptops crashing. Grrrr.


To observers:
Redundant >> me, so really it's no surprise that he trounces a move I would've chose.

_________________
Pers. Obs.
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