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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #81 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Balmung, its your move :)
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Offline balmung
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #82 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:40 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Captured Stones: 0 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

college keeps me so busy.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #83 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:46 am 
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for obs:
if you are sdk then remember that below shape can not be good.
i remember something similar happened on topazg's game and i also said it can not be good.

word of advice:
do not try to analyze why it is bad..just remember it is a bad shape then you dont have to think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Captured Stones: 0 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #84 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:19 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O W . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #85 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:01 am 
Oza
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For observers:
Magicwand wrote:
remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

This post by EdLee was liked by: Chew Terr
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #86 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:11 am 
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Helel wrote:
I was actually able to find three pro games where the former was played:





Thank you, I was biting my tongue on that one, I'm glad someone else did it ;)

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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re:
Post #87 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:54 am 
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Not for players:

EdLee wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]



I like Ed Lee's characterization of the second diagram as "normal" rather than "correct." The more I play, the more I believe that there is rarely an "only" move (setting aside life & death issues). The player's reason for a move, I think, is really important. Pros make stupid-looking moves sometimes because they have a special reason. But it is like learning a language--generally, you should learn the "rules" and the "proper" way to write/say something, but then you can break the rules when the situation calls for it.

So I think it is important to teach people the "normal" or "proper" move; if a player considers the normal move and decides it isn't good, then he or she can choose something else.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #88 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:07 pm 
Oza
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judicata wrote:
Not for players:

EdLee wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]



I like Ed Lee's characterization of the second diagram as "normal" rather than "correct." The more I play, the more I believe that there is rarely an "only" move (setting aside life & death issues). The player's reason for a move, I think, is really important. Pros make stupid-looking moves sometimes because they have a special reason. But it is like learning a language--generally, you should learn the "rules" and the "proper" way to write/say something, but then you can break the rules when the situation calls for it.

So I think it is important to teach people the "normal" or "proper" move; if a player considers the normal move and decides it isn't good, then he or she can choose something else.

Exactly. Every 'shape' question is like this, it seems like. Sure, empty triangles are great if you can read a reason why it is important or necessary. However, if you don't have a plan to make use of that specific shape, consider a jump or other 'good shape' move. Similarly, one-space jumps into the center are "normal" when under pressure. Don't play a two-space jump upwards unless you can read a way to keep it from being disconnected reasonably. That is the lesson that I took from Ed's description, too. I would even go so far as to say that I wish people would explain the 'preferred standard shape' more often, when they say something like "This shape is atrocious" or "This leaves aji in your position". I already know that most of my moves are bad, but I don't always know why, or what would be better. =D

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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #89 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:24 pm 
Oza
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For observers:
For reference: Out of 50,744 games, SmartGo returns the following search results (both local and whole board):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 0 (zero) games
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 1,002 games
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline Tommie
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #90 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:45 am 
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Helel wrote:
EdLee wrote:
For observers:[hide]
Magicwand wrote:
remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


I was actually able to find three pro games where the former was played:

(...)

(...)


Who understands move W60, resp. B61 of the second game,
Kim_Hyo-kon--An_Yeong-kil.sgf?

Could s.o. of this forum pls. explain to me, why it would be disadvantageous for B to cut with B61?

___________________________________________________________

The criticised move is technically a bump with a hane already played.
This reminds me of this sequence:
[url]3-4 point high approach, two-space high pincer, bump
http://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointHighAppr ... PincerBump

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc development of the bump
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 4 2 . . 3 . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


[/url]

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Offline amnal
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #91 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:06 am 
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Tommie wrote:

(...)


Who understands move W60, resp. B61 of the second game,
Kim_Hyo-kon--An_Yeong-kil.sgf?



[/url]


If black cuts, white wedges at E6 and escapes with one liberty to spare.
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Offline Tommie
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #92 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:17 am 
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Thanks, Amnal :bow: , I'm becoming weaker.
I was aware of the aji, yet not immediatly.
----> weak :scratch:

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Offline balmung
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #93 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:58 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Something has been bugging me the entire game it has tempted me to resign

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this was what aphelion posted and since it was my first game I didn't know if I could object so I went with it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . d c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a-d look beautiful to me and are instinctive moves. firstly you extend from a solid corner secondly you challenge whites base
tell me what you think.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #94 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:15 am 
Tengen
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@Balmung

Tempted to resign?? Why?

FWIW, my feelings:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . d c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Never underestimate the aji of :w10: here.

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #95 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:21 am 
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@ Balmung:
Yes, the pincers you post would have been perfectly natural, and they are a bit more aggressive than the actual game. However, I think the move in Aphelion's sequence is also perfectly normal and playable even on a professional level; it just gives you a nice solid corner with very few worries later on.

So no worries, he didn't trick you into any suboptimal moves :)

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #96 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:52 am 
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KGS: Aphelion02
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He's going to live, but its REALLY going to hurt
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Offline amnal
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #97 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:06 am 
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Balmung:

What happened in the game is overwhelmingly the most common professional play here. Your suggested moves are strong alternatives and very playable (some more so than others), but probably all technically worse than following the mainline (disregarding your early invasion) ;)
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Offline balmung
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #98 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:15 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline balmung
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #99 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:16 am 
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I think the capture count is wrong it should be white 1 black 0 how do we fix that?

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Offline Tommie
 Post subject: Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Post #100 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:25 am 
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balmung wrote:
I think the capture count is wrong it should be white 1 black 0 how do we fix that?


Hello Balmung,

you can click on Click Here To Show Diagram Code
and change "[go]$$Wcm34 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1"
to "[go]$$Wcm34 Captured Stones: W 1 B 0" if you wish.

Your joseki/opening question is covered in Senseis:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointHighAppr ... Connection
http://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointHighAppr ... incerFight

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3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
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