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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #41 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:29 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I considered lots of moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . e f . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . i . . . . d c . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X g . O . . b a . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . h . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really want to cut 29 off from the 3rd line stone, but as far as I could tell all of the moves in between let black wall off half of his moyo. So, new plan: settle in this half, and then fight my way out of the other half. Plus, I'm not sure fuego will be able to get a good result in this corner if it plays like in the last one. One potential flaw in my plan, I'm not sure if that k3 stone changes the joseki here or not.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #42 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X 1 . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Time = 16:07
Value = 51.3%

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 8 . . . . 7 . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . 9 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X 1 . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . O 2 4 . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't know what joseki Daniel means, but I would have played hane here. Fuego spent 90% of playouts on this move, only 4% on the hane possibility, no other serious considerations. :b33: is definitely big, but I'm not sure if its worth letting white settle so easily. with plays like :b35: and :b39: , I think Fuego believes it is Takemiya :)
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #43 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:34 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Bummer, I was hoping for the complicated thing that happens when black plays d3. Actually, this might be good for black, we'll see. I'm pretty sure I'm OK if black cuts at e3.

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Offline snorri
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #44 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:52 pm 
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emeraldemon wrote:
I don't know what joseki Daniel means, but I would have played hane here. Fuego spent 90% of playouts on this move, only 4% on the hane possibility, no other serious considerations.


So this has happened a few times so far and this may not be the best example because a local response is sort of expected to a contact move. However, what causes Fuego to prune so heavily at the level of the first ply?
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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #45 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Several times white has played a move that Fuego predicted - for example move 18 and move 21, but although Fuego then played its planned response, it changed its prediction for the continuation. Why is this so?

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #46 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:11 am 
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Every time Fuego evaluates a position, it redoes the tree. As it goes deeper in the tree, it applies less time to each node*. As a result, sometimes a continuation looks right because Fuego hasn't evaluated it very carefully. But once the actual move is on the board, Fuego can accurately look a little further into the future. In that regard, it's quite like a person's reading.

* I think it changes its method--the move selection gets dumber/faster deeper in the tree, though I could be wrong about that.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #47 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:37 pm 
Gosei
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@daal:
Basically what hyperpape said. As Fuego spends more time thinking about a position, additional playouts can cause other moves to appear better. Here's an explanation of search:
viewtopic.php?p=69830#p69830

@snorri:
I asked the same question to the Fuego development list, here's the response:
viewtopic.php?p=68939#p68939
One thing to keep in mind is that the developers are mostly interested in much shorter time limits, say 10 or 20 seconds per move. In that time frame, it's important for the search to narrow down quickly and make sure a move doesn't have a terrible consequence deeper in the tree.

If these don't make sense, ask me and I will try to explain in more depth.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . 3 O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 50.8%, Fuego's optimism has been dropping steadily over the last few moves.

Sorry everyone, I accidentally deleted my notes with the sequence and moves chosen. The sequence looked something like this (from memory):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . 3 O O 6 . . 5 . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #48 Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:29 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X 4 O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I debated between this move and the hane (b2).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc I don't like having gote after this.
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . 2 X X 3 O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc I think this might be black's best play? I'm not sure where I'll go next, but I don't think I'll want to play b2 here.
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . 2 X X 1 O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc This is the other way I think it might go. I don't think Fuego will opt for this, though. Seems good for white.
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X 1 O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc I think this would make me happy. Black is too smart for this, though.
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . 4 X X 1 O . . . 5 . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #49 Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:38 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 50.8%

90% of playouts at the chosen move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 4 . . 3 . . 9 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . 6 , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O 7 . . . 8 X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


interesting play. The aji at :b35: was pretty big, but this feels a tad slow to me. Fuego really likes that thick, influence style though, so maybe it can find a way to make this work. One thing I've noticed in these games: Fuego tennukis more than I do :scratch:
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #50 Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:42 am 
Gosei
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Man, that is not a tenuki I would have made as black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think black has to push from behind or play on the 2nd line. I was going to play up one point, but I don't like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . 6 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . 5 X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't take the stone on the edge and protect my cutting point at the same time.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #51 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:33 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 50.8%

Fuego's opinion is holding basically steady.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . 0 . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . 6 9 . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O 5 . . 8 7 X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No way Daniel will let Fuego off with that :b41: . I think Fuego may be in a tighter spot than it realizes...
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #52 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:21 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 2116
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wanted to double hane but it doesn't seem to quite work.

I'm fairly happy with the situation. I think fuego gave up a large local advantage with that tenuki. I plan to push along the 4th line here for a bit. Then I have to decide if b2 is big enough (probably not, but it looks so huge). I also have to figure out: reduce/destroy, or solidify? I think I will have sente after the next few moves. Do I defend in the upper right? Destroy black's moyo in the center-right? destroy black's area at the top? I'm not sure yet.

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Offline flOvermind
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #53 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:20 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 295
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Am I the only one who thinks the marked black stone was an excellent move?

Granted, white will build influence with the bottom left group, pushing black low. But the white wall will face a very strong black position. K3 and J8 do an excellent job reducing the influence. Black has not a single weak group, so what will white do with the wall?

Now compare this with white having cut. That way, white could chase a weak group. And that just has to be worth more than building a strong position that's already limited in scope... Especially since black then has a weak group, there is a bigger chance the influence in the bottom left will come to good use, even though it will be a bit weaker because of the missing tenuki.
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #54 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:04 am 
Oza
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flOvermind wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Am I the only one who thinks the marked black stone was an excellent move?

Granted, white will build influence with the bottom left group, pushing black low. But the white wall will face a very strong black position. K3 and J8 do an excellent job reducing the influence. Black has not a single weak group, so what will white do with the wall?

Now compare this with white having cut. That way, white could chase a weak group. And that just has to be worth more than building a strong position that's already limited in scope... Especially since black then has a weak group, there is a bigger chance the influence in the bottom left will come to good use, even though it will be a bit weaker because of the missing tenuki.


I think there are a couple of problems locally with :b35:. First, it makes the R11 stone over-concentrated. If :b35: were played first, Black would not choose to extend to R11. At the very least, I think Black would prefer to hit White's shoulder at Q12. Second, imagine that White captures the single stone in the bottom right as below. Normally Black would like to use the hanging connection of :b2:. Here though :w3: has the threat to cut on either side of the P6 stone. If Black connects at "a" instead, the White hane at "b" becomes sente yose. :b35: clings too tightly to the R8 stone, which plays no strategic role in the game since the White corner is completely alive (Black would have to play both Q2 and S8 before T3 would threaten White's eye shape).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . 2 a X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #55 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:38 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


value: 50.6%

Sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 8 . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 6 . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . 9 . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fuego changed its mind again. From this sequence it almost seems that black wants to play on top as a kind of kikashi in sente before returning to the lower left. It did also consider this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 6% of total playouts
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 3 . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@ez4u: thanks for pointing out that cutting potential, I missed that.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #56 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:22 am 
Gosei
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:shock:

Does b6 kill that corner? I think it might. Must read.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #57 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:59 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 2116
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 0 . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Letting black have two moves up there is huge, but so is this corner. My stones on top are flexible still. I will be fine.

Plus:

Image
Machine, you do NOT ignore my moves like that.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #58 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:50 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 50.2%, slowly but steadily dropping

Sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . 3 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . 0 6 7 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't really like black's choice, I think white will get too strong this way. I think white will block the other way, protecting the corner.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #59 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:50 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2116
Location: Silicon Valley
Liked others: 152
Was liked: 330
Rank: 2d AGA
GD Posts: 1193
KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Moves like this should always make white feel good. I was thinking black would play Q18, which would give me more trouble, I think.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Post #60 Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:47 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 703
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Value: 50.1%

Sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 0 3 . 6 5 X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 9 8 . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O 2 O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like black taking the side in sente, but I think white can play at C7 instead and threaten the hane underneath, making a weaker shape for black.

When the move chosen gets less than 90% of playouts, I try to post the other moves considered:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . c . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O b O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a - 58%
b - 17%
c - 14%
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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