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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #141 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:48 pm 
Oza
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Uberdude wrote:
The default is currently that kibitz is only to be read at game end, perhaps it would be better if the default were kibitz can be read once play has moved from that area of the board and comments about future possibilities are the ones that should be explicitly marked as "not until game over"? Thoughts?


Sometimes people unhide comments they've become irrelevant to the current board position, but I don't know if you want to constantly be checking the thread for un-hidden posts. As to your suggestion, it's not necessarily clear which area of the board a hidden post refers to.

I guess I understand your desire to take part in the conversation, but when you're playing a malkovitch game, your job is to entertain and enlighten us, and you should know that you're doing a good job at it, but if you want to take part in the kibbitz, it's probably easier to do it in other people's games.

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #142 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:05 pm 
Judan

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@emeraldemon

emeraldemon wrote:
@Uberdude

It seems like this sequence could be transposed like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If the game had gone that way, would you still make the a-b exchange?


Maybe, the other choice would be to play on the outside, e.g. e12, but I have some vague wories about white stubbornly taking away my eyeshape with a move like c13. I prefer to just live as quickly as possible. Also there is no guarantee I can get that exchange: white might not answer with nobi to b, but hane at b11, and then my eyespace is smaller. By playing the attachment first as a probe I can change my next moves based on how white answers.

One idea would be this attachment against the corner to settle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 3 4 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or this strange looking descent which makes miai of a and b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or the double approach gets more interesting now that black has left cutting points with the hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These last 2 ideas are covered in the Tournament Go 1992 book, Shuko used this attachment in a similar position in the Oza title match.

And of course playing the 2nd line attachment first gets you bonus kudos points for awesomeness. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #143 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:30 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
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KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So he goes for the corner as expected, so I need to settle. As I was about to submit this I did wonder about h17, but that seems like an overplay now, he can just g15 and I have two groups to worry about. First I need to make my group ok, then I can think about things like that.

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #144 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:59 pm 
Lives in gote

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Here's rare footage of Magicwand waiting for Uberdude to arrive. Too obscure...or just right?


This post by lemmata was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, Jedo
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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #145 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:44 pm 
Tengen
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everytime I spend some time off my busy schedule and write long comment I forget to submit and lose all my posting! Sorry about not recreating what I lost. I will soon as I become free from work.

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Post #146 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:25 pm 
Honinbo
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lemmata wrote:
Here's rare footage... Too obscure...or just right?
I could tell within the first 1+ second (and promptly paused it, because I wanted to see no more.) :)
Too famous.
I've never seen this movie, or any other video/TV version before,
but of course I'd read the book (and the manga). :)

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Post #147 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:50 pm 
Honinbo

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EdLee wrote:
lemmata wrote:
Here's rare footage... Too obscure...or just right?
I could tell within the first 1+ second (and promptly paused it, because I wanted to see no more.) :)
Too famous.
I've never seen this movie, or any other video/TV version before,
but of course I'd read the book (and the manga). :)


I have seen two other versions, one in the last movie of the Samurai trilogy, with Toshiro Mifune as Musashi, and another in a movie called Kojiro, a sympathetic (and, to me, sappy) portrayal of Sasaki, who was cast as a villain in the Samurai trilogy. This version struck me as medium sappy. ;)

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Post #148 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:56 pm 
Honinbo
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Bill, have you read Inoue Takehiko's version? I highly recommend it; I think it's superb, brilliant, fantastic.

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #149 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:30 am 
Oza
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lemmata wrote:
Here's rare footage of Magicwand waiting for Uberdude to arrive. Too obscure...or just right?
[..]
Not dramatic enough.

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Post #150 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:31 am 
Honinbo

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EdLee wrote:
Bill, have you read Inoue Takehiko's version? I highly recommend it; I think it's superb, brilliant, fantastic.


No, I haven't. Thanks. :)

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Visualize whirled peas.

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #151 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:51 am 
Judan

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KGS: Uberdude 4d
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Save my 2 stones to make some eyespace. The other choice here would be b13, which stops white getting the a11 hane in sente, but this c13 is better to make more space and also better for the outside, reinforcing the one point jump and taking a liberty from white so the c10 cut aji is increased and with d12 I can start to make a spare eye at d13.

Something I did wonder about is should I c16 as it's double sente and helps my eyespace a little bit, but decided no it is aji kesji as I lose aims like this for later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Keep this aji
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 |
$$ | . O 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . 7 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O 8 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure what I would do next as white nor what to expect from MW. Probably a tenuki for now. g14 cap doesn't seem so great as it pushes me to reduce white's moyo (probably I can't tenuki). Standard big opening moves like k17, o17, r10 seem playable.

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #152 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:44 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i had this planned and wrote whole page on what i was going to do and lost it before... sorry.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . 2 . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i will comment my thoughts after my work

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #153 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:41 am 
Judan

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Ok, that's a very solid move. k17 would ask for more but leave some invasion aji and would also make g14 more sente for me. It's another BIG DECISION TIME so I will slow down from this crazy blitzing I've been doing. There are two big places to my eye: the right side and top right corner. I suppose there is also the question of maybe I should c16 now that he's defended tightly at j17 so that invasion aji starting with h17 is very unlikely to be useful.

If on the right then it's q10 or r10 and I have to decide between 3rd line for territory and 4th line for moyo. I'm always rather apprehensive of q10 as there are still invasions to both sides so it doesn't actually make much solid territory. White's j8 is well placed to counter any potential for territory in the n8 area should white live on the right side and I get a 4th line wall.

For the corner my move is o17: it develops the corner stone and stops white approach there. This seems more Korean style to q10's Japanese style. Having an extra corner stone also means I can play more powerfully when white likely comes into the side, e.g. white's jump to a isn't sente anymore so :b47: is harder for white to deal with. If he only makes the safe 2 space extension for 46 then I am happy to kosumi in corner for good profit and keep his group cramped.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . a . 6 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suppose this is a good time to count to help come up with a plan, but counting is boring so I'll do that later.

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #154 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:05 pm 
Lives in gote
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Ubderdude:

Uberdude wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Usually playing the jump out and slide is bad as you plan to continue with the d11 press and losing the option of 3-3 invasion is bad, but here my plan is to settle on the side as quickly as possible and this enlarges my eyespace in sente (white pretty much has to answer at 3-3) and prevents white playing c15 (or rather if white does c15 it is not good as I can block at b15 which makes good eyeshape, whereas without the slide if white c15 I have to descend to b14 and then my eyespace is a lot worse if I b16 later; compare the 2 diagrams below (this is a very common shape, of course deciding whether to lose the 3-3 invasion aji for the aditional eyeshape is a tough choice that is highly situation dependent).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Eye at a15.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 No eyes, just 1st line false eye rubbish
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 8 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What would you have done if MW had played here with 34?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you reply at a, it potentially becomes similar to the duff line for B you gave. (Although it's better for B than the duff line, since B tenukis in the duff line.)

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #155 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:33 pm 
Judan

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KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
@drmwc:
Yes, that's an annoying good move that's hard to find a good answer to locally: if I descend or bump my eyespace is reduce in sente compared to what I got in the game. I hadn't decided at the time what to do and just hoped Magicwand didn't play it :) . Possibly hane and then crude ataris to go for the outside? I do have the ladder to lower right (it just misses j9) so perhaps double hane at a is possible, though I can't yet find a way to deal with white cut and extend to g16 so maybe I just have to nobi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 O 9 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #156 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:55 am 
Tengen

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@Uberdude
Thanks for the explanation of O17 in this position. It's surprisingly simple, but I'd never understood that tradeoff.

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #157 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:16 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
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KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, I did that "I can't decide on the perfect move so I didn't play" thing again... And counting is boring so I didn't do that. So I'll just play the move I want to as Takemiya recommends. I decided early on that I didn't want to play o17: the right is a wider area and I should be happy to give the top to white if I get the right. So then the hard decision was this low r10 or high q10? The downside of the low is this cap is nice for white (but when?) and to be honest I don't know how I will respond and I hope he doesn't get this point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Annoying cap
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . W , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he approaches at the top and plays this joseki, then probably I will play the cap point to grow my territory (can he still invade either side?) and reduce his centre potential. The top side is now his points, though in the future I can look to reduce around a but must be careful he doesn't give up the top side territory in exchange for a powerful attack on my reducing group. I should count this, but can't be bothered.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top territory, me side
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . 7 . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . 8 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or maybe he jumps instead of slide. If I answer at a I have a nasty shape weakness around b with the low r10 so in this respect q10 is better. But probably I will answer at c to get the corner which is big and looks forward to invading the top side at d so those aren't his points yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . d . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Grabbing the corner is also nice as it means if I defend my territory on the side it's not building something fake that he can destroy with 3-3 invasion: :b49: is bad as :w50: is perfect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Defending territory with a hole in it sucks
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . 0 . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #158 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:25 am 
Honinbo

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@Uberdude:
Based on your explanation, this sounds undesirable for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Could you contrast this with this diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In particular, is it the capping move that makes the first diagram's reduction move severe?

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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #159 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:38 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
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KGS: Uberdude 4d
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@Kirby:
In the first diagram if I push up then I hurt my own 47 stone, it has become a liability. There is a shape problem at a. It does separate white's stick, but I don't think I can profitably attack it really.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With the corner, I could just push and then connect (with bad aji) on the side to make some points. Those pushes help me solidify the lower right area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 He gets top moyo, me side/corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: illluck, Kirby
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 Post subject: Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand
Post #160 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:06 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
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$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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