Posts: 6725 Location: Cambridge, UK Liked others: 436 Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
No point hiding this...
Back on move 7 I mentioned I was considering a 2nd approach at c14. I used this idea (with a white one-space low pincer instead of two-space high) in a tournament game yesterday. I think I got a good result, mainly because my opponent blocked at c4 which is gote instead of d3. When I pressed at d11 I felt great. Maybe this is one time white should answer e14 at e12, a favourite trick of twoeye 7d on KGS, but here it seems about the only move that gives white a chance to not look flat and rubbish. You can also laugh at how I killed myself with the throw in at s2 later (in overtime). It's strangely similar to this weeks gogameguru problem (http://gogameguru.com/weekly-go-problems-week-23/) in which there's a very tempting throw in that's wrong.
Posts: 6725 Location: Cambridge, UK Liked others: 436 Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
As for this game...
I've been studying some pro games with this shape. Many of them are Lee Chang Ho vs Cho Hun-hyeon in the 90s. Here's one I found particularly interesting that has the h7 push. k2 also took me by surprise, I doubt I would have found that move myself. White connects under so black ends up without the territory there and all his stones end up not doing much. They don't even have eyes so could be attacked. Yet Lee ends up winning. I suppose white is low, and black does get sente, but still it makes me sad as black. I suppose the point is black gets to choose the direction of keeping white out of the lower right area. Seeing as it's unlikely he can kill white by answering j3 at h2 and white would end up living with 10+ points on the lower side, better to let him connect on the 1st line. Anyway, with this idea up my sleeve maybe I can feel happier about omitting l4.
Really hard to choose this move. I think h7 might be better (more severe) and the way it can become a probe to choose between d8 and b8 after the c8 atari had a very nice rhythm to it. Probably Fujisawa Shuko would play it, it seems the sort of thick turn/push he seems to specialise in, but I am not comfortable with some of the variations it leads to. For example if white tenukis to c8 hane at g8 feels like the right move but the cut it leaves is annoying (and once white has c8 I no longer have sente moves there to help my stone). Extend to h8 is a really nice pokey-out power point but maybe slack? And if h7 h8 g8 he extends to h9 I'm not really sure what I'm doing other than copying pro moves I don't really understand.
So I go with l4 which was actually my original plan. I think a mutual building approach is fine for me. Compared to my OGS game with Magicwand as I am black I feel like I am the one needing to be pro-active and coming up with the plan, but I think I'll just relax a bit and wait for him to overplay and then punish him .
Sorry, the only thing I can think of from watching this game is that it's a great example of overthinking things in the opening ^^;
A common result is the appearance of unusual shapes and moves over the more solid and sounds ones, which usually give us more trouble in the long-run -- aiming to show all of these moves as useful & good. (If Uberdude does this in his tournament games, then I think it's understandable to see where he's running into his aforementioned time troubles.)
So in my experience, as players become stronger they begin to shift their attention more onto the middlegame, and away from turn-based games as a means for optimal improvement.
My intention isn't to be rude or anything, so I hope that everyone continues to enjoy the game : )
Sorry about the delay. I guess that answers the question of can I play more slowly than I do on OGS! I forgot about this game, then I remembered it, then I couldn't decide where to play, then I couldn't be bothered to write pages of text and diagrams to explain my thinking. Then I repeated those stages in various orders.
Anyway, I am a bit drunk atm so I hope I don't regret this move tomorrow, but this was definitely one of the moves I was considering: I'll explain more in a hidden later. The novelty of writing pages of text/diagrams has somewhat worn off since I registered here but I'll try to get this game going again.
i thought i was ahead..but now i am not sure. i think my move is the only possible move to maintain the balance. if i have to choose..i would take white in above position but that doesnt mean that i am ahead..
_________________ "The more we think we know about The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
Posts: 6725 Location: Cambridge, UK Liked others: 436 Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Some comments for 27.
So, white played c8. A big, solid move. It secures a bunch more territory and makes it harder for me to settle on the left side. But if I was playing white probably I would approach the lower right corner. That's what happened in the one pro game in GoGoD with this position, so now we are in uncharted territory! So it is natural for me to now develop the lower right corner somehow. There are a few moves I considered:
1) High shimari. This makes a nice box shape with L4. Pros: As it is high it is harder to reduce. Cons: doesn't secure the corner so well; it has weak points at a or b later. White a is kind of annoying to undermine me there, but I think it would be a bit of an overplay when I pincer around r10. The sort of sequence that might happen on the right side is like below:
The checking extension at 29 nicely closes my shimari (and now I like it high not low as that would be too flat). There are some other choices, like 33 high or low, but I am happy with a development like this: the fight from white pulling out 28 will make it harder for white to invade my lower side.
2) Low shimari. It's better for securing the corner than the high one, but I don't like giving white an ideal reducing move at a or b. It just doesn't feel as good with L4 as the high shimari.
3) Big low shimari. Now if white reduces with the shoulder hit I get a bigger corner, but as a downside it is easier for white to live in the corner. Also white can aim at things like invading at a with the attachment at b in the corner probably giving life if black answers a on the outside.
4) I could also go for some chinese opening style move, but I dismissed this because I want to be tighter territorially after giving white a big lower left corner.
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I've recently been reading bits of Nie Weiping on Go and was struck by how precisely he counts in the early game, so will give it a go here. The easy bit first: white's lower left corner. This is totally secure: no way I can do anything in there. The yose at d2/e2 is not totally clear, but let's assume I get e2 sente yose. Normally you count pessimistically, assuming your opponent gets the double gotes, but I think here e2 is just about my privilege and I should be able to get it in sente (as if ignored jumping in the corner takes a lot of points) before white has the chance to e2 gote. White has 21 secure points, but tbh is pretty likely to get a7, f6 etc so let's call this 25. Black is rather harder to count. How much of the lower side and lower-right corner is territory? The circles are for what I think is secure territory (actually not so much if white gets e2 gote, but as I said I'm perhaps self-indulgently calling it my privilege), namely 15 points. In Nie's book I remember he counted a high shimari as 12 points. I'm reckoning in the game white can at most either invade the n3 area or the corner: in doing so I will secure the other one, for example the sequence below. One way to try to count this is say there are basically 2 3x5 blocks here (marked with squares) and I get 1 of them, i.e. 15 points. I'm not really sure if this is correct though, maybe it's a bit pessimistic. If I call the shimari 12 points, Nie style, and then give myself about half of the n3 area, say 6 points, that gives me 18 points. I think I'll go with that. The two hoshis at the top side are equal. White has some potential on the left side, me on the right. My right side is wider, but his c8 is thicker so let's call this even. So adding these up white has 25+komi = 31, black has 15+18 = 33. So is black ahead by 2 points? Hard to say that really as the error in the counting is probably larger and it's all a bit hand-wavey. Basically it's a fairly even game as I thought without counting!
a: my first thought. b: White's next move on the right is very uncomfortable. c: Now that White extended on the left c becomes a bigger point so we don't necessarily have to play in the lower right as we've already deviated from the pro game. (maybe?)
PS. don't bother responding in detail, just giving my thoughts. I'm sure most people would rather you spent time on your next move.
a: my first thought. b: White's next move on the right is very uncomfortable. c: Now that White extended on the left c becomes a bigger point so we don't necessarily have to play in the lower right as we've already deviated from the pro game. (maybe?)
PS. don't bother responding in detail, just giving my thoughts. I'm sure most people would rather you spent time on your next move.
a) Yes, also consider 2 space high shimari. Looks playable, but it's a bit weird so I didn't. I think it makes it easier for white to sabaki with things like p3 attachment (in last diagram of my previous post it means I can't so easily hane at 33). Of course maybe it means if white does invade the lower side I get a bigger corner. Also as a plus if white plays 3rd line knights move at r8 after q6, blocking at r6 is more efficient with the big shimari. b) Yes another choice. c) No, I think lower right is urgent: I've got to take points to balance c8 big corner. I may approach at c14 now.
PPS. Not regretting it, though white's last move makes me wonder if I should have h7 not l4. You can't have everything though...
PPPS. Seems even so far. Actually I would imagine most pros would take black (me) as he is low, but using influence is hard and Dinerchtein likes points and may (reasonably) assume I will not be able to use the influence effectively.
So he took the moyo boundary point. The other move for him locally was h7. This jumps ahead faster but does leave a cut weakness, but with c8 the push and cut just gets captured. Some aji for later though perhaps. Also h7 would threaten atari at j6 next so is harder to tenuki, this move is less forcing so I will tenuki: to answer it (e.g. anybody want to play k7?) is awful as it gives white an excellent gain in sente.
So first decision: Do I play some moyo-building move on the right? High or low? 3rd line makes a nice shape to come down to 3rd line for shimari, but maybe 4th is better this game so he doesn't have p10 to reduce. But I don't like this as it makes his 28 a perfect move: enlarging his moyo and reducing mine.
So how about playing on the top, e.g. k16? It's not awful, but I fear white will get too much territory on the left side. So I want to prevent this. I could approach on the top side, but that still seems to allow white to make a lot on the left. Obviously there are many choices for both, but for sake of argument imagine the diagram below. If I answer b to protect the top then if white gets sente for c it seals off a huge area. I would not be comfortable trying to live in there (other than 3-3 at top left). Maybe I could get sente to reduce but that would mean white has some followup on the top side, and even so it looks like a lot of points. For sure I got a lot elsewhere on the board and if I was as confident in my counting as Lee Changho maybe I could play this way: but black's positions are thin (e.g. white can surely get a live group in the lower right quadrant somewhere), whereas white is thick so he has lots of cash in the bank, whereas I have many chances to screw up even if the game is ok for me, which I doubt.
So I want to break the left side. Hence my approach on the "inside" of the left instead of approaching from the wider side at the top. There is a proverb about "approach on the wider side" but all proverbs have exceptions and I think this is one. In fact inside approaches seem to be gaining in popularity these days, particular among Koreans. My ideal outcome would be to settle on the left as below, but obviously that is a self-indulgent dream. I expect white to pincer (probably one-space low) and then I will maybe double approach.
So what can I learn from this game and apply to mine? Well the lower left is a 4-4 not 3-4 which is a big difference, but Lee played n3 as a way to help corner and nullify j4. Makes me think maybe my l4 was a little slow (but with the 3-4 in lower right there was a pro game with l4 so it can't be that bad). White immediately split the right side and came back to c8 later: which does lend some support to my feeling it was a little early when Magicwand played it (though obviously I've spent 2 moves, l4 and q5 to just Lee's one on the lower side, though after he got sente from the left side he did r4 to defend against 3-3 there). After white split the right in sente he came back to c8, and then black approached at c14 rather than the wider f17. But as black already has n17 on the top, this means white can't develop the top side with an approach from the o17 direction, whereas in my game he could.
Anyway, my priority is to prevent white getting too much on the left side, though I may be prepared to give it in exchange for a decent position in the corner or top side following a pincer and then double approach (will show sequence from Lee vs Cho game if it comes up).
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