#159 - opex vs Nome

Nome · **#21**

If hidden things are addresesed to me am I allowed to read them now?

So this position gives me a lot to think about (and were at the part of the game where I never really know what I should do

) What I'd really like to do is just abandon the top right corner for a play on the left at any of the lettered points below, although I'm not really sure which one I would play. But at the same time the more I look at the board, the more I realize how uncomfortable the top right might become later on, so I have ultimately decided that I need to find a play in that corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . e f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I considered playing a or b, but I think white can just not respond here and I'll again be allowing my opponent to develop elsewhere on the board with little compensation for myself, so I decided to go for the kick hoping for this sequence. Now my corner seems a little less pressured and if black follows up and tries to make a base for his two stones I can now make my move on the left. Of course, black might simply ignore my move and play elsewhere, but I think this leaves a nicer follow up than a or b would. I know there are still weaknesses in my corner, but I think that is unavoidable for now. I'm also aware that this is probably not a great move, but it seems to me that I should play it now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 a . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . 3 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · **#22**

Nome wrote:

If hidden things are addresesed to me am I allowed to read them now?

Yes

opex · **#23**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · **#24**

Nome wrote:

If hidden things are addresesed to me am I allowed to read them now?

Yes. If a hidden text is meant to be read later, the poster will mark it with something like
"after this corner is settled," "after the mid-game," "after :w50:

," or "after this fight is over," etc.

Sometimes, people will also un-hide text, e.g. " :w50:

notes unhidden."

If a hidden text is addressed to you but no restriction is specified, then you can read it now.

opex · **#25**

EdLee, i thought that by default (if no restriction, i.e. nothing is specified) the hidden notes cannot be read until after the game. To let players read them, the poster has to write something like "@player".

EdLee · **#26**

opex wrote:

EdLee, i thought that by default (if no restriction, i.e. nothing is specified) the hidden notes cannot be read until after the game. To let players read them, the poster has to write something like "@player".

That's right. Nome asked (my emphasis):

Nome wrote:

If hidden things are addresesed TO ME am I allowed to read them now?

I see the confusion. I added "addressed to you" in my reply to Nome, thanks.

Nome · **#27**

@Ed, Uber:

So, I have a lot of thought about this position, I don't know which of them, if any, are good but I'll go ahead and write everything I'm thinking about this move.

So the first move I've considered is playing a folow up in the the top right corner because if black plays a, its in a good position with 13, but I think it's to slow for me too play yet, because it's gote for white so I don't think he can come back here yet, so I will just let this area be, especially since I'm not sure how exactly I would want to follow up in this corner. There is also a reduction at b if I am not mistaken, but again, this would be gote for white to fix, so I'm not worried about having to make this reduction yet. So my attention now goes to the other parts of the board. An invasion up top seems premature at this point so I've ruled that out as well, I don't think jumping into a pincer makes much sense with so much of the board remaining open. Similarly, the bottom seems to be much smaller than the left, and as I've said before, I've been wanting to play on the left for a while, so I am definitely going to play there this turn.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . a . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My question then becomes whether or not to approach or just take the star point. It's times like these that I wished I studied joseki more often, because then I would feel more confident in approaching.

The simplest approach would just be the 1 space low, but I am pretty sure white would pincer. I don't want to jump in the corner and give white a wall in either direction, so I'd need to jump and this just seems like it's helping black make the top more secure. I don't really want to play this way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Similarly, if I play the two space, I think white can just back off and be happy and of course the possibility for a pincer still remains.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For these reasons, I'm chosing to just go with the star point for now. It leaves me options in white's corner later, and since it's a 4-4, approaching it isn't my highest priority. I'm also thinking that white might come into the bottom after this move. If he does, I will probably try to force him to settle and give me sente so that I can approach his corner. If he plays a move to defend his corner, I think I'll take a move on the bottom somewhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · **#28**

Nome, after the top is completely settled (which may take the entire game

),

Uberdude · **#29**

opex · **#30**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm15 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Nome · **#31**

Being forced to reason through your moves at my level just helps you realize how much you don't really know... but this is still pretty fun. :cool:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm15 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sur · **#32**

Sur · **#33**

@Nome

opex · **#34**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm17 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Unicorn · **#35**

Mostly for black to read after the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc A more multi-purposed move. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black's last move was very single minded. It's tough for black to defend here, but if he does, he absolutely must play something that affects the center and the rest of the board. Truth be told, it is painful for black to have to respond in this area at all because it means that white got a beautiful moyo building, strengthening move in sente. Which really shows that black's last move should have been there. It was the definition of urgent that goes before big.

Nonetheless, you should only play a move such as the one that black played if you are already entirely surrounded and you will die if you don't play something in your territory. And you must only play this move if you have a giant lead and the only way the opponent could win is if he played in that corner and killed your group. So, playing a move like that is either a declaration of victory or cowering in fear hiding under a table from your opponent.

If it's a declaration of victory, it's too brash. If it is cowering below a table, you should change your entire mindset. You should resolve to never lose because you lack fighting spirit, but to be proud to lose after giving it your all. Then eventually, you'll go through a phase like I did where I learned that constantly fighting and never playing honte is also not a good way to play until you find a good middle ground. But because you played this move, I can tell you that your mindset is flawed in that it is too passive.

Uberdude · **#36**

Uberdude · **#37**

@opex

opex · **#38**

@Uberdude

Nome · **#39**

Sorry it's taken a bit for my move, I've been busy the last couple of days.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm17 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . 2 . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

opex · **#40**

No problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm19 Captures: black - 0, white - 0. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

#159 - opex vs Nome

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