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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #21 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:20 am 
Oza
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Drewch,
(1) In general (say, on an empty board) how would you rank these (from biggest to smallest) -- (a) sides; (b) center; (c) corners ?

(2) Follow-up question:
Drewch wrote:
gain large territory in the bottom middle.
How does your "bottom middle" idea fit in your answer to (1) ?
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re:
Post #22 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:23 am 
Dies with sente

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KGS: drewch
EdLee wrote:
Drewch,
(1) In general (say, on an empty board) how would you rank these (from biggest to smallest) -- (a) sides; (b) center; (c) corners ?

(2) Follow-up question:
Drewch wrote:
gain large territory in the bottom middle.
How does your "bottom middle" idea fit in your answer to (1) ?


@EdLee
I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle (I know this doesn't answer your question).
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.

So I was thinking that the bottom middle is bigger than the corners.

However, even typing this out is making me feel a bit silly and that I am probably completely wrong.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #23 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:42 am 
Oza
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Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . X . x . 1 . x . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . x . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
W does not have to reply to :b7:. Instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
B missed a big chance with :b7:; instead, :b1: starts an attack on the :wc: group while expanding the lower right moyo --
W would be too busy to worry about (a) or (b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . X . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . W W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #24 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:48 am 
Oza
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Drewch,
No problem. :)
Drewch wrote:
I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.
Could you explain this discrepancy? Why would "the order you should get them" be the exact opposite of the bigness ordering?
In other words, if the corners are the smallest (as you say), then why should you take the corners first?
Similarly, if the center is the biggest (as you say), then why should you take it last?
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re:
Post #25 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:00 pm 
Dies with sente

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KGS: drewch
EdLee wrote:
Drewch,
No problem. :)
Drewch wrote:
I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.
Could you explain this discrepancy? Why would "the order you should get them" be the exact opposite of the bigness ordering?
In other words, if the corners are the smallest (as you say), then why should you take the corners first?
Similarly, if the center is the biggest (as you say), then why should you take it last?


@EdLee

The reason for taking them first is because corners are much easier to get then middle, and sides are next easiest, and the middle is the hardest to get.
So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play.

In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board. Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners).

So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner

But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.

In the case of the current game, I think I was able to make moves seeming like I am going for the corner, but really trying to secure an entire side, and in terms of the bottom of the board, I believe I can own the middle, and 0.5 of a corner. leaving him with 1.5 corners.

I think this would put me ahead in the early game in terms of territory.

I am hoping that this is what happens. I am curious to see if my thinking is completely flawed.

In normal games I would always defend the corners first. This game is definitely out of my normal style. But I am glad this is coming up. Thanks Ed.
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #26 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:14 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 89
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Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 16k
KGS: drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . B W . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I am not typing out my plan properly, so I'm going to make a diagram for how I think it is going to go:
On the left side it is the attach and extend joseski:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry, I couldn't have the numbers on there properly. But after the left, I will play M4, and he will likely play Q5 starting the joeseki
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #27 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:22 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1202
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Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X W . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Joseki.
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #28 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:24 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 89
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 16k
KGS: drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Finishing attach and extend joseki
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #29 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:28 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1202
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Liked others: 358
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B W O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It'll be interesting to see what he does next and whether I can tenuki before he does.
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #30 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:30 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 89
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 16k
KGS: drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B O O . . . . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Attach and Extend Joeseki is complete. Now carry out to the rest.
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #31 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:48 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1202
Location: Ireland
Liked others: 358
Was liked: 181
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Options are:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . X . . . . . . . . b O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a versus b

I'm going with b as I already reasoned that it leaves me to tenuki first and thus play a. His last stone will nullify the effect of my wall though. The other option of taking the side and corner though and giving him the outside is too generous though I think. Though definitely this is sub optimal with his last move.


Last edited by Boidhre on Wed May 09, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #32 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:50 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 89
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 16k
KGS: drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This was his expected response. Let's see if he differs at all
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Offline EdLee
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Post #33 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:57 pm 
Oza
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Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
(1) So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play.
But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.

(2) In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board.
Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners).
So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner
(1) and (2) still contradict each other, so you're still saying two opposite things and trying to get away with it.
Let's see a diagram with an exact count for (2). Let's see what you mean by (2). :)
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch
Post #34 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:59 pm 
Gosei

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Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . B W . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Joseki. Like I said though, sub-optimal.


This beckons though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . a . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #35 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:00 pm 
Oza
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Posts: 3263
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Liked others: 83
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:evil:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . Q , # . X O . ,
$$ | . . . . # Q O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
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Offline Boidhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #36 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:01 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1202
Location: Ireland
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Universal go server handle: Boidhre
EdLee wrote:
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . X . x . 1 . x . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . x . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
W does not have to reply to :b7:. Instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
B missed a big chance with :b7:; instead, :b1: starts an attack on the :wc: group while expanding the lower right moyo --
W would be too busy to worry about (a) or (b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . X . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . W W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Ed,

Thanks, I really should have spotted those moves. :(
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #37 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:05 pm 
Oza
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Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Sorry, I couldn't have the numbers on there properly.
Please try to number the lower right corner variation, starting with a move 1. :)
If you have to show more than 10 moves, make a new diagram starting with move 11. :)
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re:
Post #38 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:06 pm 
Dies with sente

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KGS: drewch
EdLee wrote:
Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
(1) So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play.
But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.

(2) In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board.
Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners).
So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner
(1) and (2) still contradict each other, so you're still saying two opposite things and trying to get away with it.
Let's see a diagram with an exact count for (2). Let's see what you mean by (2). :)



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


white has 136 points, Black has 121. This is pretty close. In fact I think this was why the board was designed ot be 19x19, because in any sized board, the 3rd line is easiest to make territory.

Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory, even though it is extremely harder to get.

I know I'm contradicting myself, which is why I feel uneasy about it.

I agree that the biggest moves early game are in the corner, however, for whatever reason, I feel like I could get an entire side, while giving up half the left corner, but possibly both corners now that I am seeing it play out. And I felt like the side would get me more points
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #39 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:19 pm 
Oza
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Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(1) white has 136 points, Black has 121.
(2) Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory...
From (1), W has MORE points than B. From (2), you're saying B has more -- please reconcile yourself. :)
Which is it? You cannot say both (1) "W has more" and (2) "B has more" at the same time! :) You can only pick one. Which is it?!

Follow-up question: how many moves did W get in the above diagram, and how many for B?
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Offline Drewch
 Post subject: Re:
Post #40 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:25 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 89
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Rank: KGS 16k
KGS: drewch
EdLee wrote:
Drewch,
Drewch wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(1) white has 136 points, Black has 121.
(2) Therefore, by this diagram, the Middle is theoretically having the most potential for territory...
From (1), W has MORE points than B. From (2), you're saying B has more -- please reconcile yourself. :)
Which is it? You cannot say both (1) "W has more" and (2) "B has more" at the same time! :) You can only pick one. Which is it?!

Follow-up question: how many moves did W get in the above diagram, and how many for B?


White has 136 Points, Black has 121 Points
White has Corners AND sides. Black has Middle.

Therefore, since Corner + sides = Middle + E
Where E is a relatively small amount of points in comparison to total number of points. I can say that Middle has more territory than corners and sides (separately), obviously not together.

Therefore, my guess would be that middle is more territory, then sides, then corners. But it is either

Middle > corners > sides
OR
Middle > sides > corners

Middle > sides > corners I believe is the one that is correct.

But I am not saying that the middle is more than SIDES and CORNERS together. I am saying middle is the largest of the three.

Follow up Question: W has made 4 More moves. I was just commenting on why the board size was 19x19 and using it to demonstrate the borders of middle and side+corner. Since third line is the easiest to make territory.


<<EDIT>>
I know this whole thing depends on context of the situation, and the situation will never be as I just drew it out.

I also know that I'm probably wrong about the middle being "more" territory. It may be more actually, but I now see that the corner is "bigger" because it takes WAY less moves to secure the corner or side then it does the middle.
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