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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3
Post #221 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:58 am 
Honinbo

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Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . W . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black is still ahead, but White is on pace to win, thanks to Black's lackluster play. I am glad that Kirby is thinking of attacking. However, White has only one weak group now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is the obvious play to try to mount an attack, leaning against the White group on the bottom side. But then Black does not seem to have much against the marked White stone, given the weakness of the Black tengen stone (marked).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . S O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . S . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: here looks more flexible, aiming at the one space jump or the jump attachment (marked).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . W . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . a , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems to me that the key to this position is Black's tengen stone. If it dies a dog's death it will be hard for Black to win. :b1: comes to mind. Now B"a" does attack the marked White stone as well as the White group on the bottom side. If White plays on the bottom side, then B"b" looks good.

Edit: While I was writing this note, Kirby played the approach on the bottom side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . 1 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a good play, too. It extends Black's framework while attacking, a dual-purpose play. :)

Edit: Unhidden.


J7 is an interesting idea. It's not really a territorial play though, is it? Is it more important for me to try to generate influence at this point in the game?


I don't really think in those terms. Your play is fine, combining attack and making a framework. Maybe it is better than J-07. :) I just hate for a play to become mochikomi.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3
Post #222 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:11 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Kirby wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . B O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . X , . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . X . . O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Does anyone else have doubts about the wisdom of attaching to a weak stone?


I agree about not touching a weak stone. But is this white stone really weak? I thought that it was strong since it was backed by white's influence. I felt that attaching would help me to do something inside his area of influence.

Is it really a weak stone?


Yes, it is. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . C . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . C B . . C . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . C . . . . O . . . . C X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . B . . B C . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . B . C O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . C . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Within a Manhattan distance of 5, it has one friendly stone to four enemy stones. True, the Black tengen stone is even weaker, but Black's play should strengthen it.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3
Post #223 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:28 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
...

Yes, it is. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . C . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . C B . . C . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . C . . . . O . . . . C X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . B . . B C . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . B . C O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . C . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Within a Manhattan distance of 5, it has one friendly stone to four enemy stones. True, the Black tengen stone is even weaker, but Black's play should strengthen it.


The reason I am against contacting a weak stone is because the contact tends to strengthen both sides, and it makes a weak stone stronger. That's also my rationale for why people say to attach to strong stones.

In this case, I thought that attaching might bring strength to the marked black stone in your diagram if white defended as he did in the game.

1.) Is this part correct? Does the attachment bring strength to black as well in the relative area? This was my feeling.

2.) I didn't think of the white stone as being weak at all because of the weakness of my tengen stone. The stone seems quite safe because it can always attack my tengen.

However, based on what you've said, I am gathering that if I play another move that is not a contact move to help my tengen stone, I strengthen my weakness without strengthening his.

In other words, white's stone is not weak for as long as my tengen is weak. But if I play a move to help my tengen without contacting, the white stone becomes more weak.

This is what I am getting from the explanation. Am I still missing something?

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3
Post #224 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:26 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
...

Yes, it is. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . C . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . C B . . C . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . C . . . . O . . . . C X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . B . . B C . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . B . C O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . C . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Within a Manhattan distance of 5, it has one friendly stone to four enemy stones. True, the Black tengen stone is even weaker, but Black's play should strengthen it.


The reason I am against contacting a weak stone is because the contact tends to strengthen both sides, and it makes a weak stone stronger. That's also my rationale for why people say to attach to strong stones.

In this case, I thought that attaching might bring strength to the marked black stone in your diagram if white defended as he did in the game.

1.) Is this part correct? Does the attachment bring strength to black as well in the relative area? This was my feeling.

2.) I didn't think of the white stone as being weak at all because of the weakness of my tengen stone. The stone seems quite safe because it can always attack my tengen.

However, based on what you've said, I am gathering that if I play another move that is not a contact move to help my tengen stone, I strengthen my weakness without strengthening his.

In other words, white's stone is not weak for as long as my tengen is weak. But if I play a move to help my tengen without contacting, the white stone becomes more weak.

This is what I am getting from the explanation. Am I still missing something?


Both stones are weak, but the tengen stone is weaker. Each player to play can strengthen his own stone without strengthening the other.

White's stone, although weak, is not in any real danger of being killed. Black's stone is. So my first thought is about sacrificing it. Maybe you played the attachment with the idea of saving it. Well, you did, but at what cost? :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3
Post #225 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:33 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
...

Both stones are weak, but the tengen stone is weaker. Each player to play can strengthen his own stone without strengthening the other.

White's stone, although weak, is not in any real danger of being killed. Black's stone is. So my first thought is about sacrificing it. Maybe you played the attachment with the idea of saving it. Well, you did, but at what cost? :)


I understand that my play in the game was bad, and I think that I get everything that you've said except for the one part:

"White's stone, although weak, is not in any real danger of being killed."

I don't understand how a stone that is not in any real danger is weak, I guess. This is what is getting me with the whole "don't contact a weak stone" bit, I think.

How can I tell if a stone is weak? The manhattan distance trick is kind of interesting, but I'm not really sure how to tell if a stone is weak when it is not in any danger.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3
Post #226 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:01 am 
Gosei

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KGS: dfan
Kirby wrote:
I don't understand how a stone that is not in any real danger is weak, I guess. This is what is getting me with the whole "don't contact a weak stone" bit, I think.

You are stronger than me so I'm not sure I should try to jump in, but: one of the most useful strategies in Go is to take profit while attacking a weak group. It doesn't mean that the weak group was "in any real danger" of dying, but the fact that your opponent had to spend time and energy making it safe (even though making it safe was not difficult) while you did useful things is very valuable. Just because you can't reasonably hope to kill it doesn't mean that you can't profit from attacking it.


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