Chew Terr mentioned something like this, too. I'm not really sure how to fix this directly, though.

_________________
be immersed

I agree about not touching a weak stone. But is this white stone really weak? I thought that it was strong since it was backed by white's influence. I felt that attaching would help me to do something inside his area of influence.

Is it really a weak stone?

_________________
be immersed

Is it bad because it eliminates the possibility of the cut at K5? Just plain aji keshi? I can kind of feel that it's bad, but I don't quite understand.

_________________
be immersed

This is kind of accurate. Should I have aimed for something other than living inside before attaching to the lone white stone?

_________________
be immersed

I posted a few questions about the comments that I saw throughout the game. Please feel free to answer them (to anyone).

_________________
be immersed

i dont have definite answer here but i will try to explain.
i can play thick with no aji. but it would be slower. but i think it would be correct.
what i played is full of bad aji.
if you try to make something happend right now..you probably get nothing.
remember lower right corner you tried a move that threaten my two stone.
it is strong but full of bad aji.
i didnt move until the right time.
when the time is right you can activate the bad aji.
when is the right time??? it is too hard to explain that i dont even know the right answer to that.
i dont know if this answer helped but i tried.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Before Black's move there, The bottom 11 lines wide, the left is 6 lines wide. So the bottom is bigger.

I said that mostly because you said you were threatening to keep going into the left side. And I don't know if it's better, but I would have tenuki'd after that attachment unless I thought the corner would die. I really can't stand getting pushed around like that. If black can't tenuki, then black must have made a mistake previously.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

no. if you die you lose even quicker.
you should tried to live by distroying eveything i have. which was possible i think.
you gave me too much influence and points so you lose even if you live.

attach move was not to my likeing..means looked kyuish.
i dont know what was better at that point.
maybe someone stronger can answer that question.

but i can tell you...if i was playing black i wouldn't put myself in that situation to start with.
see the difference?

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

i can not answer your question because i dont have exact definition of weak stone.
but i can give you many points that is a better move than your move.
i would have played 'b' but all three points are better move than yours.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . a C O . c . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . X , . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . X . . O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

one way that i know is...you play me with crazy handycap and lose some...and eventually you will feel comfortable and get stronger and win..
i think this is the whole point of Kerby-magicwand series.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

yes...but both missed something...
i wouldnt play 2 because it will put me deeper into trouble.
i know i played an overplay..but i minimized the damage by using them as an aji to seal the middle.
if i can play 2 and exchang with 3 then my 2 will help secure the middle...which is good enough for me.
but..before kill my aji i used it to create another aji in the corner.

it is all about the aji. when you have 1 stone then it is very flexable. once you make it 2 stone then you are no longer flexable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 1 3 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . X . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

If it is, so what? Style is style. It doesn't mean making inferior plays.

Judgement is one thing. It improves with experience. But, as I said, I feel that the approach is wrong. "Just let me live here and there and I will win on territory." If you just make territory you will lose points. Your gamble is that you won't lose enough for White to overcome the handicap.




As for this particular situation, the 3-3 is typically a double sente. If White plays there Black should make a base; if Black plays there White should protect his territory and group. In this case, however, the 3-3 is not sente for Black, as Magicwand points out. Enlarging his framework is bigger than defending his territory on the side. By the same token, reducing the framework is bigger than the 3-3. (It also makes a base. And in addition it threatens a framework on the left side.)

FWIW, Magicwand and I agree about both the assessment of the position and the play. That doesn't mean that we are right, OC.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

i said many times in this forum there are two side to the coin.
1) is the direction correct? correct idea and motive?
2) if it is is it right way to play?
#2 is very hard and even professionals have different opinion on how to play.
but..#1 is easier than #2 because usually there are limited number of places you can play.
both Bill and I had correct idea and direction and motive. (i think)
but did we have optimal play? that is too hard and i will not answer and only give my opinion.
if you can improve on #1 the your game will improve much faster.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

With "a", I was a bit afraid of the following at some point in the future:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . B C O . c . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . X 5 . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O 6 X 7 . O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but maybe I didn't need to worry about it at all. It seemed like dangerous aji.

"b" seems good, but don't you win on points still, then?

_________________
be immersed

Yes, that's exactly right. Sorry for the bad attitude.

_________________
be immersed

First, it is not a lot of influence, because of the bad aji. Second, you have a tengen stone. Weak though it is, it hinders White's influence.

Second, you have stones, too. How will you make them work together?

Third, as has been mentioned, the breadth of the bottom side is greater than the breadth of the left side.

Let's compare combs:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Suppose that Black plays on the bottom side and then White approaches from the left side. Play might continue this way. Indeed, and work well with . But look how well , , and work with !

But, you may say, and are not territory oriented.

Sorry, you are the one who played a stone on tengen.

But, you may say, it was necessary to reduce White's framework.

Indeed, it was, and it would have been better to reduce it earlier, with the move Magicwand and I suggested.

----

I was reading something today about getting better at tournament chess. It suggested studying a few openings deeply, because there is a lot of declarative knowledge to learn, and you should specialize. That also works in go, but to a much lesser extent. The battlefield is larger in go, and the scope of the plays is more limited. Your opponent has much more leeway in go. You cannot steer the game so much into familiar territory.

Even though he was giving three stones, Magicwand created a position where your best play was to reduce. It does not matter that your game plan called for making territory. You missed an early chance, but later made an attempt with the play at tengen. (Not as good as a deeper play, but a good idea.) Now that you have made that play, how do you make your plays work with it? It doesn't matter what your original game plan was, you should make a framework with it. Well, you did not make a framework with it. Now how do you throw it away? Your next play ignores that question, as you secure a corner. (Which you later lose, anyway.) In the end you live with the tengen stone, for 2.5 points (!), while giving up a strong wall.

The observer has to wonder, What is Black doing?

It is one thing to play for territory. But if that is all your early plays do, they are losing points. Take a look at some ancient games, say, early 19th century. Play was more territory oriented than now. They did not have the whole board vision that developed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But they didn't just make territory. It is instructive to see how much they appreciated influence.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

If you look quickly through the game you can see that magicwand dictated the pace of the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move is pass. Instead b should jump out at m15 or cap at o13. These are moves that shows the spirit.
m15 - I want to divide and fight
o13 - I want GRANDE MOYO!

Several moves later b entered san-san at c17 - again the same! K4! D10!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this moment b has 6 disconnected groups! When white entered lower side the game was over. I'd say Kirby needs to read "breakthrough to shodan" before next game. You are lacking ideas to play at grand scale You should also play a lot more games as a white.

Playing territorially means that when there are two equivalent choices, one chooses the one which gets more immediate cash. It does not mean to choose inferior options just because the others are not territorial enough.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Maybe the descent? (Do a tewari.)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.