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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:14 pm 
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I saved my last post as a draft, but now don't know how to retrieve it. Sigh. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So my comments are going to be a little more clipped than usual.

I double approached the corner hoping to make a bit of trouble. I'm expecting a split - black might either attach on top of :w7: or play a kosumi from the corner stone. Either way I'll try to come out to the centre and hassle the lower-middle stone a bit, hopefully without ceding too much of the corner to black. A kick / a retreat to 3-3 / a tighter pincer would probably be a mistake here by black. If I can do all this without my :w5: outright dying, that would be lovely, but...

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #22 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:22 pm 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


1. Trying to keep white's stone separated. 2. Perhaps I can lean on O3 to later attack Q7. One thing I'm curious about is if BW decides to invade the lower right 3-3, which would be the better way to block? I'm not saying he will; it's just a question that popped into my head.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #23 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wasn't expecting a keima. The keima can be cut: it might not turn out awful for black (my groups are still weaker than black's of course), but I certainly hope it does. :) This is what happens if black responds to the cut properly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 2 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Notice that black can't just eat my stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O 4 6 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b9: looks like it kills the four stones, but because of the double atari, I can wriggle out. But as soon as the marked stone becomes stronger it's a real possibility. Black will probably reinforce the marked stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X W . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(or a, depending on which group he wants to put pressure on). At this point the marked stone is weak. White's best option then is probably to press against the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 4 6 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(notice that :w4: connects the two stones).

This corner is a little mysterious to me. Here's a variation (one of many) I couldn't quite read out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O 1 . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this situation, is black alive after :b9:? In other words, am I in trouble, or should black have played :b11: at a? Who knows. So actually maybe I should play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm4
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 X X O 1 0 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 8 X 5 3 . O X X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(but I haven't really read this properly yet).

Here's a completely different variation I could read out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 2 1 X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At first it looks like I'm in trouble, because:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 1 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X 3 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Oops. But then I remember that good moves exist, and:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...black dies. Incidentally, black 7 taking a liberty off is even worse:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X 7 3 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anyway, all that aside, here's what happens if black responds to the cut badly (by just letting me push straight through):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 1 2 X 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 4 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i.e. black is unhappy everywhere.

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Post #24 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:17 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 a . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . b X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
( For beginners. ) B was not being careful with :b8: --
he didn't realize it could be cut by either W(a) or W(b).
If B had read out the variations with both cuts and decided everything was OK for B,
then B could play :b8:, but he probably didn't do it.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #25 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:35 am 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's goes my hope for a nice, non-complicated, non-messy game ;-) Oh well, as an old Go proverb says: In for a dime, in for a dollar. White will probably cross-cut and then I think I've got a big problem.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #26 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:48 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 2 X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As expected. Having slept on it, I'm a little more worried about the fate of my group on the lower side than I was. Let's see what happens next.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #27 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:05 am 
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My instinct for black's response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 2 X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems to be a harder fight for white.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #28 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:21 pm 
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FYI, I'm going to be out of town until Sunday evening/night. I'll probably be back Monday morning to play more questionable moves.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #29 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:42 pm 
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No problem. :)

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Post #30 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:15 pm 
Honinbo
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( For beginners. ) We can go back to :w7: to see other options for :b8::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
If B takes (a), then :w2: at (b) is a natural attempt to close off B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Then B can push-and-cut with :b3: and :b5:. We can revert to the real game if :b12: at (a):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 4 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Conversely, B can take (b) himself. This has an advantage over :b8: in that this diagonal cannot be cut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This gives W the option to take 3-3:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Another idea is to lean on :wc: with :b1::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #31 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Black could have also considered playing like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #32 Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:34 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I may be completely off-base on this, but I'm concerned about my stones on the right side of the 10th line coming under too much pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #33 Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:17 am 
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I'll have a think about this.

Here is a mistake I could make at this point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: looks like an attacking move, but it actually just puts me in a drastic shortage of liberties. After :b2: - :b4:, it looks like black is alive in the corner and strong on the outside, and one of my groups will probably die. Of course, they're both weak - something will probably die anyway.

Here's an unlikely-looking move, but one that looks a little better to me so far:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked stone isn't very important. :w1: here is making a base and trying to claim some of the corner. Black would be making a big mistake to cut the two stones apart:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . b a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . d c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


then I play :w3: as here. Notice that I'm not worried about the exchange black a, white b: black can't play c to cut me off because black's three stones only have two liberties left, and I can play d to claim the whole corner (and the black stone at c dies). Instead, after b, black probably has to play something awful like d (in which case, maybe I play c) or capture the white stone in atari (in which case I play d). Either way I get a large corner and both groups are strong.

Black really wants to keep me separated. This might work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...or black might die in the corner. The potential eyespace is quite large, but I have strong groups on both sides, and black has weird shape. Every liberty race I read out comes down to one liberty. I've read out a lot of variations, but not usefully - both sides may have crazy tesujis I can't find. Who knows. I'll post some later if I have time. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #34 Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:44 pm 
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billywoods wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked stone isn't very important.
Cutting stones (like the marked one) tend to be very important. If Black were to capture the stone, his group would gain in strength greatly. In turn, the two White groups would become imperiled. I don't think White should sacrifice the stone unless he has no other choice, which he does.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #35 Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:31 pm 
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Sorry - it seems I never got round to this!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


More or less as I wrote above. If I cling onto the stone at P5 too fervently, I think I'll only weaken my stone at Q7. Let's see what happens. :)

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Post #36 Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:02 pm 
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( For beginners. ) One possible continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #37 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


While I have no confidence I can kill this group, I think I can press the issue to make life in the corner.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #38 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As before. Black now has three liberties and a bit of a cramped position, and all three of my groups have four liberties.

So, my group on the right has a bit of eyespace, and space to make a little more. The next thing to worry about is black's next move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . d e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a b c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . g f h . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black tenukis, of course I play b to remove a liberty. This gives me enough space to connect my groups.
d and e are miai.
If black plays b, I'll probably respond at c to remove a liberty.
Black a is strange shape for black, and I've not yet decided whether to play f or g.
Black c might just about work. Perhaps I'll cut at b, allow black to play a, then play d to squeeze.

I haven't read any of this properly yet. I probably should, but I'm a little tipsy, and the move I played seems to be the obvious 'only move' locally.

Of course, the correct thing for black to do is to continue to split my groups somehow: a, b, c, f, h or similar.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #39 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:37 pm 
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White's in big trouble. After the indicated sequence, Black next threatens to play at "a," "b," or "c," and White cannot meet all of these threats at once.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . a . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.

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 Post subject: Re: #219 ikkyu vs. billywoods
Post #40 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll certainly take this opportunity to capture the cutting stone. As I see it, white really has to play at A

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm10 Prisoners: 0 black, 0 white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 7 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My plan is to use this to build up my influence and then renew my attack on white's top group at B.

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