Teamovitch #1

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:11 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This game is getting more and more exciting

To teammates and observers:

I like the ideas behind each and every one of the suggestions this time. Red's lean and attack is finally properly supported by the ability to build a huge position on the right side, but I went against it because of the push and cut joseki variation. In the lean, Black gets to cut and create a fight - if we win and kill something (like the corner), it's a huge huge bonus for White. If we lose something, it's a huge huge bonus for Black. If everyone lives, it's unclear how the outcome will be, and also whether or not our top right group will have become weak. There are lots of weak cut groups, and it's hard to see the wood for the trees for me - red's crosscut variation is just so complicated, and leaves so many weaknesses for both sides - I don't want us to lose on a blunder.

Interestingly, one near joseki variation on that side that side that I thought was possibly playable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B W O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we can rescue the aji on the bottom, I think this has potential, but again, it's complicated. As a result of all this, I went with Chew's move. It's simple, it's clear, and it doesn't leave White with weaknesses. It's also slack of Black to play on the 3rd line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . a . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think we have to assume this, so if some thought can be put into how that affects things, and to whether or not we're going to get to play "a" or not, that would be good.

@ TJ: I really like the idea, but the placement I think is going to cause us too many problems:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . 1 . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

here is sente, and let's Black have the big attack going on in the lower right, something that feels the most urgent priority to deal with first. I agree it's nice to have the extensions in both directions (normally being good because, even though the opponent can force one of them in sente, they are miai), but here one of the forcing moves Black can play greatly helps Black in the big fight.

Interestingly, my personal choice was none of these, and I'm going to put it down now as it can't be played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this is not tolerable by Black, so White can look for the opportunity to play on the bottom later. A standard sequence might look like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . c . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . X . b . . 9 . . a W 4 X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

makes miai of "a" and "b" to settle, although "c" could well be better than "a". It gives White the corner in sente, and makes Black's wall hard to use. Sure, we can't really attack that solitary stone now, but the corner cash plus lower edge stability feels like more than adequate compensation.

To observers only:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . e . . . . X . . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . b . . . X c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There's some nasty aji here that we'll have to be very careful with. If I was more sure the press wouldn't get us killed, I'd have taken it, but I do that and die in a blaze of glory too often, so I'm trying something clearer. I'm disappointed no-one suggested the counter pincer, it seemed like an obvious move to me, even if it then got discounted

"a" through to "e" are all moves I'm keeping in mind. If people have much curiosity over any of them (as in, what am I thinking), do ask

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:48 am

An idea I had:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 3 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black submits to the press, w can double hane over the two stones. If black pushes the other way in response to the shoulder hit, it will revert to a one space low pincer joseki which is favorable to white because r11 is perfectly placed.

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:22 am

black suggestion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There don't really seem to be too many other options here. If we pull out the pincer stone our corner gets enclosed which isn't really an option. Therefore the only choice is how to jump out. We don't want to jump low because then we will get pressed down easily.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Assuming white just shuts down the pincer stone, we have sente to take some big moves.

Post by **Jordus** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:45 am

Black Internal Chat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm Move - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the most important move right now is to extend out the pincer stone at (a) or (b).... White does not necessarily have the corner on the next move.. besides we already own two corners and can easily invade a third still...Points wise, in the short term view, if we lose that corner it is a few more points lost then if we lose the side, However, in the long run, giving white the side hurts us more because of the huge influence over the center they achieve... So I think we need to prevent that.... at least that is what is going through my mind at the moment...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:52 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Fwiffo:

@Jordus:

I agree with you that we would like to support the pincer stone. But corners are bigger than sides, so if we are indeed faced with the option of abandoning one or the other, we should take the corner. Taking the side ends up something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 One exemplary line $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O d . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 7 8 . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 6 4 2 b X a 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 c . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

True, we can live, but white can press us down so much that he becomes strong, and our pincer stone is caught between two groups that it cannot successfully threaten. It get transformed from a pincer to merely an invasion.
If we are going to have our pincer turned into an invasion, it would be better to do it like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 5 , 7 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By taking the corner first, we get more territory and access to the center.

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:54 am

Sorry, I haven't had time to look at this as thoroughly as I'd like, but I don't want to hold up the game.

Black suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 Move - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo suggested a move in the corner that I'm happy with, Jordus is pondering jumping, so I'll suggest leaning to get out.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:00 am

W move suggestion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 4 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I still like the cap at 3 for the next move. I debated between this and the shoulder hit, and prefer this. We don't have to seal B in, but any strength we can get here is good.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:15 am

W suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since we didn't tenuki last time, we can not tenuki now. This makes good shape for our weak group while attacking the lone black stone

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:27 am

@chew:

How do you plan on handling this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:44 am

Black internal chat:

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:50 am

@observers only

topazg wrote:@chew:

How do you plan on handling this?

$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That doesn't seem such a huge problem if white does this instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 5 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:51 am

For observers:

Also, in chew's sequence (I'm really liking that attack if we get it, but I think

won't happen), I prefer this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . 4 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:04 am

topazg wrote:@chew:

How do you plan on handling this?

$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Glad you asked. I had a look at this before my move suggestion, but I decided it wasn't a threat, so I didn't post about it previously. Obviously, we have a couple of options here. Let's check them out.
a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 2 B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O 1 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 6 X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, we go along entirely with what B is pushing for. If we do this, we just focus on getting our group out. While it gives W 4th line strength below, it feels awfully toothpastey. I feel like black won't do this immediately, as it may end up hurting them more than helping

And my personal favorite, b:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 5 3 4 8 . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X 7 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm25 Move 25 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O B . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 6 X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 3 X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Notably, after 27, black cannot atari us down, or they will lose one of the groups it cuts (via capturing race or ladder). I could be missing something here, but every variation on this seems to give us something.

If we got into this situation, I would suggest 'b'. Even if we die small in the corner, we'll get a ton of thickness, potentially seal W into the right side small, or otherwise come out of this fine. While I'm not sure if Topazg can post much more specifically about problems with this analysis, I would appreciate it, Red and TJ, if ya'all would have a look at these diagrams and let me know if you see a gaping error. Thanks!

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:11 am

For observers only:

FWIW, my answer to my own question is, there is no problem :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 1 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . b 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

"a" and "b" are now miai...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 1 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 8 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black should never allow this if he is to play

, and the alternative cripples Black's lower side

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:50 am

Thoughts:

This is locally not great, but gives us a severe attack on the lone black stone. The peep is mostly neutralized by this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 2 X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Playing here doesn't work very well. After 4, 5 is pretty much forced, or the right side group gets disemboweled. Also, if black saves his right stone, we won't be comfortable, and we also owe a move around a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . O 5 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . a . . 1 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1