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 Post subject: Review Request 15k ogs
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:33 am 
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In December i started to play Go again after a 9 month hiatus. It took me a few days to get into it again but i did. This is my first "real" finished game at the 19x19 after some strange or outright unpleasant encounters.

And guess whom i've met! A sandbagger! Emotionally very challenging for me, but afterwards i decided to take it as a free lesson :). A few times i lost my fighting spirit, but managed to rise it again and did my best to fight back :rambo:

During my own review i recognized a few general problems, it would be great to get some advice on them.
1) when reading a situation, i often overlook future ataris; this occurs with tsumego too
2) invasions, reductions, or preventing this walled in areas in the first place; how to?
3) cutting points; well, i got a pretty good lesson on them, but i'd like some advice how to think about them or study them in general (not necessarily books)
4) possibly more important: what i didn't even recognize as mistakes

Many thanks in advance to everyone who looks at the game. :)

Here my review on ogs: https://online-go.com/review/215371




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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 15k ogs
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:47 am 
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What makes you think that Black is a sandbagger? Maybe he shouldn't be exactly 15k (I am not good at distinctions at that level) but he did not play like a SDK. I think his strengths may just have matched up well against your weaknesses.

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 15k ogs
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:03 pm 
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dfan wrote:
What makes you think that Black is a sandbagger? Maybe he shouldn't be exactly 15k (I am not good at distinctions at that level) but he did not play like a SDK. I think his strengths may just have matched up well against your weaknesses.


A legitimate Question!
I didn’t claim that lightly. My opponent used only 5 min and after i passed they just let the clock run. I took my time and looked at the profile and how they lost their games. The account lists more than 5700 rated games. Almost all of the recent losses were either time out when they had clearly won or resigned early when the game was in their favour or the result still open. Also the rating graph shows distinctive spikes up and down.
Of course i may misinterpret all that, but i don’t see how.


I don’t think black played really good either, that’s why i looked at the profile and the losses.

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Post #4 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:04 pm 
Judan

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See variation for move 174. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 15k ogs
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:35 am 
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Thank you, Bill Spight :)

Do i understand your continuation and variation of my variation rightly, that in trying to kill this group i would have inevitably lost at least the stones close to the center?

Playing through them changed my perception of the area. Before i still thought of it as my territory being invaded and that i just have to make better borders. Now i start to feel that my 'borders' simply were loosely connected, killable groups.
Am i right about that, or is it just a new misconception?

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Post #6 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:15 am 
Judan
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Quote:
2) invasions, reductions... how to?
3) cutting points; ...study them in general
Quote:
Am i right about that, or is it just a new misconception?
Hi Hrab, Welcome back from your hiatus.

Please continue to play serious (non-blitz) games and have them reviewed (here, or other venues).
It has to do with our basics (fundamentals). Many, many threads on these topics. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 15k ogs
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:26 am 
Judan

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Hrabanus wrote:
Thank you, Bill Spight :)


De nada. :)

Quote:
Do i understand your continuation and variation of my variation rightly, that in trying to kill this group i would have inevitably lost at least the stones close to the center?


Oh, there is nothing inevitable about it. I have added a couple of more variations below. :) If you had restricted the potential eye space for the Black group (see variation at White 172), would Black have been able to make two eyes? Play around with the position and see what you think. :)

Also, Black had an interesting alternative at move 177. :)

Quote:
Playing through them changed my perception of the area. Before i still thought of it as my territory being invaded and that i just have to make better borders. Now i start to feel that my 'borders' simply were loosely connected, killable groups.
Am i right about that, or is it just a new misconception?


Books have been written about play inside the opponent's territory. OC, if there is an effective play inside the opponent's territory, maybe it was not really his territory. ;) But informally we call it territory, anyway. :) At move 162 I have marked five cutting points, chinks in White's armor. Black made use of them, or might have, to live inside White's territory. Later he managed to make seki in the top right corner, inside White's territory.But could White have killed the invading stones with better play? That is an interesting question. :) And such questions are why those books have been written.

You will find, as you improve, that even dan players can make mistakes in surprisingly small regions of the board. As a 2 kyu in a handicap game with a 4 dan I managed to win the game by living inside his territory at the end. :) As dame get filled towards the end of the game opportunities arise to turn the tables, especially at the DDK level. Even if an attempt to play inside the opponent's territory fails, it can be a learning opportunity. :) That is why you should develop the habit of filling all the dame before passing. Some people think that speculative invasions inside the opponent's territory are rude. That may be so with dan vs. dan, when the replies are obvious, but mistakes are rampant at the kyu level. To win the game because the opponent made a mistake. How rude is that! :rambo:



Edit: To be fair, when people reach 5 kyu or so they are quite good at protective plays. They deserve an A grade in that department. Still, that means that occasional mistakes are made in a small percentage of games.

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 15k ogs
Post #8 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:17 am 
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Thanks for your the welcome and encouragement, Ed :)

Looks like the answer to my bigger questions is to keep on studying. I think i was looking for some easy answers, but now that i think about it i believe that there aren’t many of that kind in Go (easy ≠ simple). That’s part of why i’m so intrigued with Go, if it was easy it wouldn’t be half that interesting.
At the moment i find it hard to get serious live games at ogs or any game at all on kgs (looks like nobody below 10 kyu is left there). That’s a bit frustrating, but i’ve got some good correspondance games going and i’m rather pigheaded persistent, so i keep searching. I’m also considering to join some study group.

Bill Spight wrote:
Oh, there is nothing inevitable about it. I have added a couple of more variations below. :) If you had restricted the potential eye space for the Black group (see variation at White 172), would Black have been able to make two eyes? Play around with the position and see what you think. :)

Thanks again :)
Especially W 172 looks very interesting to me. I didn’t have time yet to have more than a look at it, but i’ll put it on my board and look deeper into this situation.
I have to admit that i often feel annoyed about speculative invasions (though i feel here it wasn’t that speculative). Towards the end there’s usually little time left for me but much more for my opponents. Time management is just another thing on my to learn list.

Interestingly, in one of my corr. tournament games black (9 kyu) built a gorensei and i had little choice but to invade it early. So far it’s not going bad, my group will probably live; but i can already see how black profits from my invasion. Very interesting!
And black plays very calmly, no wild attacks, but simple, solid, effective. :)

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Post #9 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:55 am 
Judan
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Quote:
black (9 kyu) built a gorensei
But a 19x19 has only three star points on one side... :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 15k ogs
Post #10 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Well, i just used the term i found here:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?Gorensei :study:
This is the game:
https://online-go.com/game/7317600
Edit: 2 stones are one point off to the side, so it would be more a gorensei-ish fuseki.
Please no useful comments on the game, it‘s a tournament.

re review:
I’m just playing through some variations on my real board. I can’t make black alive after your 172 (yet?). I really like that move :). It takes potential eyespace away and is an obstacle to that area behind.

And i found another move for 162 (o11) that secures 2 cutting points and would have prevented a lot of trouble …

In another tournament game i played a rather succesful invasion against someone around my strength today, it happened we were online at the same time, so we could play that sequence live. I finished in sente and have to do some thinking where the biggest point is. :rambo:
I was a lot more conscious about cutting points today, that feels already like real progress. :D

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Post #11 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:16 pm 
Judan
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Thanks! :)

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Post #12 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:56 pm 
Judan

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Hrabanus wrote:
I was a lot more conscious about cutting points today, that feels already like real progress. :D


Way to go. :clap:

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