Not enough room to post what went wrong

[Fedya]

There are a lot of cooments here to digest, so I'm likely going to be posting multiple replies here and coming back to some of the comments farther down the thread later in the day.

DrStraw asked:

Why dwell so much on territory?

I thought the point of the game was to get more territory than your opponent. And there's no way to tell at the beginning of the game whether it's going to be a 151-150 game or a 21-20 game.

Ed Lee wrote:

this connect makes your group very heavy.

I specifically played this connect instead of the tiger mouth because in a previously game I posted here, I played the tiger mouth, and was told I should just connect directly. So now I have to learn when one should play the direct connect and when one should play the tiger mouth. This goes with something you said later in your comment:

Please see Post 6 (part 2), Another opening, trapped .

which leads to:

As mentioned many times, other nice people here
will try to be helpful and show you diagrams after diagrams,
and these are all well-meaning and good,
but what actually happens in your next game
is, say, you reduce a wrong liberty and lose a big group.

One of the things that I've hoped I can get out of a review is something that will enable me to figure out what to do in that next game, when the principles are more or less the same, but the position is different enough that you can't just follow the principles by rote. One of the things I think about when I'm playing and I'm in a position where I don't know what to do, is to ask myself what strong players would suggest I should do. Unsurprisingly, the answers aren't as good as what strong players actually play themselves.

[EdLee]

I specifically played this connect instead of the tiger mouth because in a previously game I posted here, I played the tiger mouth, and was told I should just connect directly. So now I have to learn when one should play the direct connect and when one should play the tiger mouth.

Hi Fedya, do you still have access to the other thread and post, about your solid connect ?

If I play O17, my opponent gets a big territory in the top right.
...
I thought the point of the game was to get more territory than your opponent

Two finer points.

• To end up with more points than your opponent, at the end of the game. How to get there is why humans are still studying Go after a few thousand years.
• As mentioned, part of the issue here is the evaluation. Black does not necessarily get a big territory top right.

[Shaddy]

For 10, tiger's mouth vs connect isn't a large difference - it's the same general idea, and both are heavy. To give an example of a different idea, I like p8 or n6, but I'm not convinced White should play locally.

[DrStraw]

DrStraw asked:

Why dwell so much on territory?

I thought the point of the game was to get more territory than your opponent. And there's no way to tell at the beginning of the game whether it's going to be a 151-150 game or a 21-20 game.

Well, as for the first point you are correct. So giving the opponent a 50 point corner (not that I saying you would in this game) is just fine if you get 51 points on the outside.

And for the second point, I disagree. Based on the first ten or so moves it is often possible to tell whether it will be a moyo game (large territories) or a scrappy, fighting game (small territories).

[topazg]

And for the second point, I disagree. Based on the first ten or so moves it is often possible to tell whether it will be a moyo game (large territories) or a scrappy, fighting game (small territories).

I was going to make a point along the lines of "I'm not so sure, at least at kyu levels generally, where all sorts of things can happen that at least one of the two players didn't expect", but then I've seen 9p vs 9p games where it was clearly an influential moyo game, then two ko fights, three sacrifice exchanges and a couple of running dragons later the board was a mess of captured groups and few point territories where previously it looked impossible. I guess sometimes cookies crumble in unexpected ways

I specifically played this connect instead of the tiger mouth because in a previously game I posted here, I played the tiger mouth, and was told I should just connect directly. So now I have to learn when one should play the direct connect and when one should play the tiger mouth....

The problem is having a good feel of "why" one is better in some situations and the other is better in different ones. This is (yes Bill, I'm being one of "those" adults again ) one of the reasons I'm always a bit frustrated when X posts a review, Y says "ah, you shouldn't do this here, you should do that" and doesn't offer a "because" that makes sense to X. X then misapplies said knowledge and instead of having a potential bad habit adjusted, just replaces it with a new one.

[Bill Spight]

There are a lot of cooments here to digest, so I'm likely going to be posting multiple replies here and coming back to some of the comments farther down the thread later in the day.

DrStraw asked:

Why dwell so much on territory?

I thought the point of the game was to get more territory than your opponent.

Well, yes, but as Takagawa said, it is very difficult to make territory. By which he meant that if you develop rapidly enough, you do not make territory. You make territory as a result of local fights or skirmishes. The kyu disease is to try to make sure territory early in the game and fall behind in development.

Ed Lee wrote:

this connect makes your group very heavy.

I specifically played this connect instead of the tiger mouth because in a previously game I posted here, I played the tiger mouth, and was told I should just connect directly. So now I have to learn when one should play the direct connect and when one should play the tiger mouth.

The three stones are heavy because they do not have eye potential, and, since they form a unit, it is not easy to throw them away. That would be true if you made a hanging connection (tiger's mouth), as well. It is much easier to throw two stones away than three, which is why tenuki is a good idea at this point. Besides, you keep sente.

One of the things that I've hoped I can get out of a review is something that will enable me to figure out what to do in that next game, when the principles are more or less the same, but the position is different enough that you can't just follow the principles by rote. One of the things I think about when I'm playing and I'm in a position where I don't know what to do, is to ask myself what strong players would suggest I should do.

That is not a bad idea.

Unsurprisingly, the answers aren't as good as what strong players actually play themselves.

Don't be so quick to judge. For instance, you played the invasion at because of your thickness on the left side. That was a pretty good play. You did not get a good result from it for two reasons. First, at you did not play the descent to the second line, which would have threatened the bottom left corner, and your failure to play the descent allowed Black to give you bad shape. Second, you made an unnecessary defensive play at , a play which you yourself recognized as bad. You could have used your thickness not only to take away a few potential points from Black on the bottom side, but also to build something of your own in the bottom right quadrant.

OC, you will always make errors. We all do. But as you get better you will make different errors. The fact that you may make errors later on does not detract from the good plays that you do make.

[Fedya]

Quantumf wrote:

Move 40 - I would say you are playing too close to black's thickness, and stones here are at best passes, but more likely to become problems for you later.

41-42 - black made a mistake and helps you

How is 40 a mistake? As I commented, I thought that the twho stones in the middle would work well with the one in the corner. It should also reduce what Black can get with his formation. It's not as though I can play something around D7 either, because if I had done that you would be calling it a mistake for the same reason Ed Lee called Black 15 a mistake.

120: despite the atari, W cut at q2 is working: read it out.

I would never have considered R2. When I first read it out prior to playing 116, I was planning to atari with R3 and then S4, and only noticed with more stones on the board that letting Black play Q4 would put two of my stones in atari and screw up that plan.

Yes, I'm trying to read; it's just that I have a distressing tendency to miss ataris when visualizing stones on the board and only notice them when more stones are actually on the board.

[Fedya]

I specifically played this connect instead of the tiger mouth because in a previously game I posted here, I played the tiger mouth, and was told I should just connect directly. So now I have to learn when one should play the direct connect and when one should play the tiger mouth.

Hi Fedya, do you still have access to the other thread and post, about your solid connect ?

I'm pretty certain it's one of the two previous games I posted here, which would be last March and last November, although just searching for threads I started in this subforum should bring them up.

[EdLee]

How is a mistake?
...
It's not as though I can play something around D7 either, because if I had done that you would be calling it a mistake for the same reason Ed Lee called Black 15 a mistake.

Hi Fedya,

There's a pattern here, as fodder for thought:

• I also thought was off. Now, two others have voiced a similar opinion,
  including Bill (high dan level). It is not easy to explain why is off.
  Many moves are of this nature. I also believe this is not your biggest
  problem at this level, and I also was not sure about being off
  (until Bill's note), so I didn't comment on it.
  It would just confuse you more, which is exactly what's happening.
  ( In other words, many moves of this nature need not be mentioned
  at this level, because they'll just confuse people more. )
• If you think playing at D7 is the same as ,
  this is one problem in your understanding right now:
  it's the same reason you're confused about .
  The shape is completely different to at D7.
  This is so fundamentally important, it's worth a repeat:
  The shape is completely different to at D7.
  So, no, quantumf would not call at D7 a mistake,
  and if he did, it would not be for the same reason as .
  Every stone can make a difference.
  Repeat: Every stone can make a difference.
  I kind of know how you feel, because I was also there around 2005.
  10 years ago, I would also have confused with
  at D7. I think this took about 3 years to fix, for me.

Based on this, I can make a guess about your other recently posted game,
and its relation to -- little to no relationship.

[EdLee]

...enable me to figure out what to do in that next game, when the principles are more or less the same,
but the position is different enough that you can't just follow the principles by rote.

Hi Fedya,

This is probably one of the first things we learn, when we first start:

$$W Variation A
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
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$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Variation A
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

$$W Variation B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Variation B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

$$W Variation C
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Variation C
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

$$B Variation D -- re: :b15:
$$-----------------------
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . X . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ? . . . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Variation D -- re: :b15:
$$-----------------------
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . X . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ? . . . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |[/go]

$$W Variation E -- re: :w40: at D7
$$-----------------------
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Variation E -- re: :w40: at D7
$$-----------------------
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |[/go]

• At these levels, we understand some differences among Variations A, B, and C.
  We know to look all the way across the board !
  But somehow, in Variations D and E, we confuse with .
  When there are important enemy and friendly stones so close to us !
  -- I was here, around 10 years ago.
• The keywords are in "more or less" and "different".
• Perhaps the most important: these are not the kind of mistakes that cost you your games.

[quantumf]

The subtleties of why 40 is wrong are difficult to articulate, and are probably beyond me. I described it as too close to black's thickness, while Bill described it as an overplay. It's probably both, and more.

From my experience, I know that black is going to place a stone somewhere in the middle of that space between 40 and the corner. While I would not expect my stones around 40 to get into trouble any time soon, I also know that because of black's excellent thickness above, my stones will not be able to attack black's invading stones particularly aggressively. I would thus not expect a particularly great result, and ultimately, my stones may end up weak, or at best only getting a couple of points. I would thus look to play a move that combines limiting the power of black's influence, and also developing my position in some way (admittedly, your move 40 has at least partly the same intention).

I'm not sure where I would play, many moves are available. D7 would not be my personal choice, given how hopeless it is in terms of the corner, or my lack of confidence in building significant influence to the right, what with the O3 stone there, but I'm sure it's a viable option. Personally I think C8 is fine, and I think Bill recommended it as one of your earlier moves. Probably anything in the vicinity is playable.

My guess about why Bill called it an overplay is that it's a move that only works if your opponent ignores it - 40 combined with a white move around c7/d7 would be very nice.

Ed, it may be worth describing why you think 15 is a mistake.

[Uberdude]

I wouldn't worry about move 40, it's fine for a 7k and fine for a 1k.

[EdLee]

Ed, it may be worth describing why you think 15 is a mistake.

Hi quantum, no, please see post 19. And Uber's post 22.

[EdLee]

I'm pretty certain it's one of the two previous games I posted here, which would be last March and last November

I didn't see the move in these -- did I miss it ?

Jan, 2015 game

Nov, 2014 game

If you could find the thread and the move, it would be helpful to compare it with .

[quantumf]

I wouldn't worry about move 40, it's fine for a 7k and fine for a 1k.

Am I to conclude from this, by induction, that it's OK at 5d? If a move is bad, and it can be articulated why, then at any level it's potentially worth knowing, even if you lack the tactical expertise or whole board judgement (or whatever) to punish it appropriately. I appreciate that there is a concern that we should help Fedya focus on the biggest flaws, and I agree, 40 is far from the biggest flaw, but the whole forum can benefit from the discussion. So if in fact 40 is not an error, then I'd be grateful in some assistance in understanding why my impression (and explanation) is flawed.