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 Post subject: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #1 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:40 am
 Oza

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I have a question.

`[go]\$\$ Dia. 1: on the left side \$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 2 . a . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 1 . . . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]`

I think we're all familiar with joseki, and know that "a" is a possible follow up for B later on.

`[go]\$\$ Dia. 2: on the left side, elsewhere\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 2 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 1 . . . 8 9 4 . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]`

This is the continuation that I'm most familiar with - it's easy for me to remember because that wedge looks so odd, but is remarkably tricky for W to deal with.

However, in a game today I saw another continuation that looked thin for W... I thought W could only play this way when he was quite strong on both sides. But it actually proved impossible for B (well, for me! ) to gain much, other than two weak groups.

`[go]\$\$ Dia. 3: on the left side, elsewhere\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 2 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 1 . . 8 9 . 4 . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]`

I ended up not being able to attack W on either side, and had to do an embarrassing amount of damage to my corner while I scrambled to live on the second line. Maybe this was just a result of a few bad reads or instincts on my part. Or, on the other hand, maybe I don't understand in Dia. 2, in Dia. 3, or even when B can hope to profits from . Any advice?

The game in question is under the hidden if you want to see how I got myself in such a mess.

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 Post subject: Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #2 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:12 am
 Tengen

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The kick at C15 seems inconsistent with trying to make C12 live.

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 Post subject: Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #3 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:34 am
 Oza

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Thanks, Joaz. You mean because of C8? I actually wasn't entirely sure whether C12 could live, with or without the forcing move first. I think C12 was just a mistake, given that C8 was already there.

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 Post subject: Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #4 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:09 am
 Oza

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`[go]\$\$Bc\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . O . 1 . 3 4 . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . X . . 2 . 5 O . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]`

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 Post subject: Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #5 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:21 am
 Lives with ko

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`[go]\$\$ \$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 2 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 1 . . 6 7 . 4 . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]`

is a strong response to the invasion. Usually this is not playable without extra support around . However B should always consider this possibility before invading, since dying here is generally not good. This sequence is rarely seen in pro games, since
if is an overplay, a pro will choose a different response
if kills, a pro will not have invaded in the first place

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 Post subject: Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #6 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:46 am
 Lives in sente

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This is a standard sequence given by "Attack and Defense".

`[go]\$\$Bc B11 at 'a'\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \$\$ . . . . 6 5 7 . . 9 . a . . . . . . . \$\$ . . . . 8 O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . \$\$ . . . . . . 2 3 . O . . . . . . . . . \$\$ . . . . . . . 4 0 . . . . . . . . . . \$\$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \$\$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

I think this result would not have been bad for you in the game. Taking away every territory White had on the right side in exchange for some corner territory.

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 Post subject: Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #7 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:03 am
 Oza

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A thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Invading the three-space jump from the 3rd to 4th line #8 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:54 pm
 Oza

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Thanks to everyone! These are all great ideas. I think SoDesuNe's sequence was most nearly what I was looking for - a simple way to live without flopping all over the board with half-dead groups. Bill's K17 idea was something I was thinking about in the game, but was too chicken to go through with. Next time, more kiai! But the alternatives to the invasion are also interesting. I tend to rotely go through the "big points" on the board, and I really need to do more whole-board reading and evaluating.

The basic point that I wasn't acknowledging is that there's no way for B to stabilize his stones efficently and cut white - he has to choose one or the other. (Well, I guess in SoDesuNe's variation there's a g15 cut left for later, but that seems speculative.)

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