was absolutely fine. was very bad, and your suggestion of R9 is not so great either. One move in particular should be crying out to you after . You are strong enough to find it, but you shouldn't have to find it, it should become instinct.

That wasn't a rhetorical question, by the way; I was going somewhere with it. But if you have moved on, I can drop it.

So you're saying in the second diagram is a mistake?

No, is a standard good move, and there is a standard good reply.

Actually, I think I was using the present tense (technically, the progressive) in the sense that I have a generial tendency to misjudge which groups are strong and which aren't.

S6?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Don't fear the crosscut?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First, is one of those basics that I keep saying you should learn. I trust that you have learned it. One step at a time.



Good thinking. You are learning.



That is a pessimistic view. A more cold-blooded analysis is called for. If you always run scared, how will you become a dangerous opponent?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Don't fear the crosscut?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pretend that you have the Black stones. Would you think that you could enclose the White group, so that it would have to struggle to make small life? Or would you be afraid of an attack on your floating Black stones?

I am guessing that this position arose from some sequence like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Don't fear the crosscut?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 5 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First, this may not be the best situation to play . Why? Because and already have help in the form of . It is as though Black got to play two stones in response to . OTOH, if White simply extends to 7, the White wall feels like it is too close to the stone. And besides, the stone is there to help in any fighting. Another thought is to hane at "a" instead. In any event, this is not a basic situation. How to play is a matter of judgement.

Backing up,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Slide underneath
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Neither "a" nor "b" seem inviting, so is a play that you may see in this kind of position. It is joseki. Not one of the basics, but something to keep in mind.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I think S6 is actually pretty good, though it isn't the first-instinct move I was looking for. Any time you can make this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ . . O O . .
$$ . O X X O .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]

it is a pretty good sign. I call it the "bear hug".

One move should leap out at you even more, though.


OK, I'll drop it.

I see in the meantime that Bill Spight suggested Q9, which I never would have considered.

Hmmm. I wouldn't have considered that move at all. In response to dfan, I was thinking about Q10, but that didn't seem right either.



Yes, that is precisely what happened. I didn't play at 7 mostly because it seemed as though that way Black would be getting too much territory on the bottom. The idea that it's too close to the marked white stone is, I must admit, another thing I wouldn't have considered.



I've seen the slide in josekis that are more in the corner, as though I had approached at b rather than playing the wedge, but that's another thing I didn't consider in the game.

A more general point partly related to this game is that I've thought people looking for reviews ought to go over their games and include their comments in the reviews for a couple of reasons:

1) You might find the blunder that caused you to lose, and why waste other people's time if you can find the mistakes yourself that they would criticize you for?

2) Sometimes it's the moves you don't comment on that are more interesting, and indicative of a lack of knowledge. In this case, it's another thing that I would have found very difficult to spot that perhaps the mistake came before the crosscut. All of the moves up to that point, both White's and Black's, looked so reasonable to me. Stronger players come on the forum and spot it straight away.

There is a great quote from Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go:

So: realize how good this is, and lay it out on your go board every morning. When Black extends out perpendicularly to your weak stones as with , your first instinct should be to jump out right next to his extension, as with here, not away from his extension, as with R9. This is counterintuitive at first, but see what happens when Black cuts your jump in each case, and all will become clear. Seriously, this is a move your hand should leap to play (not that your hand is always correct...).

Good old Kageyama.

In fact, part of the reason I played the hane rather than the extension is because one of the things I keep in mind is Kageyama's chapter on "The Struggle to Get Ahead". If I had simply extended Black could have played a knight's move like O5 rather than just pushing from behind, and that position looked better for Black than my playing the hane did.

I suppose I need to learn more lessons from Kageyama.

I actually thought that that was what you had in mind when you said R9. My bad.

Here I beg to differ with dfan. Q-09 is one of the basics, but even the basics of go are not all that obvious. If they were, we should all be dan players. Fedya, there is no shame in not seeing Q-09. It is just a play that you had not seen, neither in your own games, nor in books, nor in pro games. Even kyu players can benefit from seeing pro games.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Good! You are developing your judgement.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I think we actually agree. I didn't mean that it is obvious from first principles; I meant that this is one of the things that you learn on the way to 5k, and that one of the marks of being a 5k as opposed to, say, a 10k, is that it has become your first instinct. There is zero shame in not knowing it yet. As I mentioned somewhere (probably in this very thread), these sorts of holes in one's knowledge of the fundamentals are a great thing, because they're so easy to fix.

My insistence on the fundamentalness of this move was meant to underscore how common and useful it is. It's not some crazy reading technique that appears in tsumego occasionally; it comes up all the time in actual games.

Another thing that I've always thought is a weakness of mine is dealing with unorthodox moves, or moves that I just haven't seen before that perhaps I shouldn't think of as unorthodox since that's probably a bit arrogant. When my opponent plays something new to me, I have to try to figure out from first principles what to do, and that seems to go wrong distressingly often. In this game, my opponent pretty much did that all over the board, and while I thought early on I was doing OK, things quickly went downhill and I lost quite badly, with weak groups all over the board that, in every case, I got by not being passive.

( emphasis added. )
A reasonable conjecture is that there are gaping holes in the acquired said principles.
Thus coming back to the title of the thread, and all the nice discussions.
( Fundamentals. )

Local shape:

Next time your opponent makes a J group in gote, you need to know how to kill it and play your sente moves to set up that situation. http://senseis.xmp.net/?JGroup

At what's wrong with F6 to separate?

With the upper right, it's imperative to separate white. When black allows white to connect and get strong, black is left with two groups he can't defend with one move.

In the lower right, when white tenukies, it's time to start with the placements.

More generally, your comments seem to belie a defeatist attitude. "This is why I shouldn't X", "This is what happens when I Y" etc. Be positive! There may be specific problems that occurred, but I guarantee they're not problems with things like tenuki or playing a pincer.

On another level, if your opponent is creating lots of weak groups, just keep them separate and play solidly, and he'll fall apart eventually. Think less about being in danger, and more about putting your opponent in danger. A good go player needs to be able to smell the blood in the water like a shark, and hound a wounded group until it dies, or at least you get a few good bites.

As a separate exercise, I'd recommend taking your next few games (ideally losses) and posting them here with comments, but only with comments on what you did right, or what went well. Let other people tell you what you did wrong, and defend yourself against them because they were right by your plan.

Ed:

I had Black, so I played thinking it was the right move. I wouldn't have played if I'd had White. I'm not certain whether I'd have played a pincer or not. Then again, I would probably have played in the opposite corner so that Black couldn't play a diagonal fuseki. And the bigger issue for me was figuring out a good response to .

Skydyr:

You're right that I need to study the L-group and J-group more. Surprisingly, they don't seem to come up all that often in my games, so on the rare occasions they do come up I feel like I'm trying to solve it from the beginning again.

And you're saying that should have been at Q17, I presume?

As for keeping a good attitude, I felt after I played C9 that I was doing really well. But a couple dozen moves later, I look at the board and realize things have gone wrong somewhere, and I had no idea where. At least in the previous game I posted, I knew pretty much right where I screwed up, after the cross-cut; I just had no idea what the right response was. A game like this where things go wrong in a way I don't see at all is much more frustrating. And I haven't had a game like this in a while.

Regarding a loss where I should comment on the good things I did, I may have one of those coming up soon. Over on DGS, I'm bouncing between 6k and 7k, and am at the point where there aren't many people ranked lower than me but higher on the ladder for me to challenge. So recently I challenged a 5k and am involved in an interesting game where I think the outcome is still unclear. But just for the heck of it, I also challenged a 2d. I've been trying hard and felt like I did reasonably well in the joseki, but suddenly my opponent came up with an attack I just couldn't figure out how to deal with and things turned really quickly. It's much less frustration than a sense of being impressed with my opponent's ability.

Actually, when you relied on general principles, you did rather well.

One principle (heuristic) that you violated was letting the White group you were attacking escape, instead of fencing it in.

Another principle, which you may not have been aware of, is attacking on a large scale. , besides being a non-tesuji, was small. White could have ignored it. Would you then have captured two stones?

Some comments.



Edit: Added a variation for White in the variations for . Also added a variation for , a better play, I think.

Also, when you said that somehow things had gone wrong 30 moves later, I commented that you had made a series of mistakes. That sounds harsh. I did not mean it that way. Everybody makes mistakes. I meant that you had good ideas, but your implementation was flawed. Now, there is one tesuji that you probably had not learned. But you simply let White escape. Also, you failed to make a peep, which is well withing your ability to see. The thing is, instead of wondering how to choose the right joseki, you would do better to focus on basic tactics, on tesuji, on life and death. These things are learnable, and studying them will allow you to implement your ideas better.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.