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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #361 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:15 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
OK. Back to some positional judgment here. I think Black must still be walking around with raised eyebrows after your resigning here.

This is a big fight with many groups involved and one where you have the advantage. This is not a position to resign.

Try thinking of yourself as being Black here and think you are surrounded by White. How do you feel?


I haven't looked at your other post yet -- I was thinking at work today of how I'd respond to you and Majordomo -- but the one thing I see now is that I could have played E9, which should get me a fair amount of territory on the side, but it doesn't do anything to save my floating group in the middle.

If I had Black here, my thought would be that I was leading, and if I lost, I'd be wondering what the heck I had done to blow a won game.

And now off to read your second post.

Edit:

After reading your second response, I overlooked all of those moves, especially J16 at the top. I was still thinking about running with the group, and saw that J7 obviously didn't work after Black cut at J8, and J8 didn't seem to work since Black would be able to connect those stones in the middle. :oops: :mad:

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #362 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:21 pm 
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So I've been thinking the past couple of weeks about Bill Spight's comments to "Attack on a big scale". Unfortunately, it seems that every time I try, the result is "get killed on a big scale". I've had several games where this is happening. Well, maybe I'm not always getting killed, but in running to save my groups my territory is ground down to almost nothing. Not how all the moves where I played with the specific strategy of attacking on a big scale are the ones that went terribly wrong, almost immediately.

(I apologize for the relative lack of comments, but I woke up this morning with a bad cold, just in time for the holidays! :mad: I guess playing serious games over the holidays may be out....)


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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #363 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:18 pm 
Oza

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Some thoughts on the game:


There seems to be a misconception over what constitutes an attack vs. an invasion. Sometimes invasions turn into running fights that involve attacking, but generally if you invade, YOU are the one being attacked.

It may be worth, every time you think you need to invade, to first count and make sure that you actually need to do something there to stay in balance, and second, to consider a few different reductions instead. As a general tendency, invasions are gote, while reduction is sente, which may help on its own, in addition to not giving away tons of thickness.


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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #364 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:30 pm 
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Some contradicting 2k-comments :) :


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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #365 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:30 pm 
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It may be worth, every time you think you need to invade, to first count and make sure that you actually need to do something there to stay in balance, and second, to consider a few different reductions instead. As a general tendency, invasions are gote, while reduction is sente, which may help on its own, in addition to not giving away tons of thickness.

Ah, yes, reductions. Another of the concepts that I have a lot of difficulty with. Whenever I try to play a reduction, it never looks like it reduces very much, and I wind up with a weak floating group while my opponents shore up their territory on the side.

And funny you'd mention thickness too, since that's another of the concepts that people who have read a lot of my comments will know is something I struggle with. Namely, thickness always seems to be a liability for me, despite what stronger players say about it being good.

Off to read both of your reviews....

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #366 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:37 pm 
Judan

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Thickness, reduction, other concepts that you have difficulty with! Maybe you should forget about concepts and just fight like hell. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #367 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:56 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Maybe you should forget about concepts and just fight like hell. :)


I had the same idea. :) But is fighting not another concept? Anyway, Fedya, if you give bezerkbanzai a try, don't mistake ataris after a crosscut for fighting. And post it here. I am sure Bill is happy to review. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #368 Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:14 pm 
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A few more comments:

Another of my recent losses is a game that actually does have what (at least to me) look like reducing moves on my part, and where I seemed to be doing well up until my opponent invaded my moyo and killed quite a few stones. I'll have to find that game and comment on it.

As for the reviews of the game I posted. First, I don't think I would ever have thought of those second-line moves that skydyr mentioned when I played the 3-3 invasion on :b35:. When I played the ko to save those stones, I wasn't thinking about just the few stones in the corner, but the fact that White would otherwise have almost a sixth of the board from A1-J7.

P9 on :b59: is the sort of thing that doesn't look big to me at all, and looks like it's just going to wind up isolated and floating with no way to get eyes.

Bayu: You're suggesting that the good reason to play a pincer on :b13: is because I have a stone in the top right, and not because, well, I have no other idea what to do? As you can see, I still have difficulty figuring out which joseki to play in any given situation.

:b17: No, I obviously don't know what I'm doing. :oops: :mad: If I did, would I have played that move?

I see you also have the same feeling about the lower left as skydyr.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #369 Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:55 pm 
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I like that you comment on comments. Here is are some things to study hands on in my 2k-view (senseis and eidogo. It's all there. It won't take you long). I talk from my experience (and there are reasons I am 2k and not 2d). So if this is b**s, I am happy to be corrected and learn something myself. Don't let Fedya pick up bad habits from me.

Fedya wrote:
First, I don't think I would ever have thought of those second-line moves that skydyr mentioned when I played the 3-3 invasion on :b35:.

Well, you should. It is one of the easy joseki, so there is no excuse. No branching, all quite natural and easy to remember (you have to form a L+2 group with sente moves). Senseis is probably your friend here. And if you don't know about the L+x groups, then that's also homework.

Fedya wrote:
When I played the ko to save those stones, I wasn't thinking about just the few stones in the corner, but the fact that White would otherwise have almost a sixth of the board from A1-J7.


White already had most of that sixth of the board anyway. The stakes are only the points in the corner and their future potential (and the potential is nil apart from the cutting stone on D5, so we're basically only talking the points here). For the rest of the points that make up the sixth of the board you got some compensation elsewhere before (you should have). And for the points in the corner you get 2 moves elsewhere (actually 3 because of the double step ko). The deal of letting them go is to your favor.

Fedya wrote:
P9 on :b59: is the sort of thing that doesn't look big to me at all, and looks like it's just going to wind up isolated and floating with no way to get eyes.


I have the same feeling here. But mostly because black has to create a MOAB size ruckus to win this game. I prefere reductions when I feel ahead. Isolated stones are no problem as long your opponent answered them on the inside. If they got answered on the inside you can let them go (maybe they were aji keshi and wrong to play, but once answered on the inside they have done their deed). That's one of the few things I blindly trust and would prefer to understand properly. Hopefully when I'm stronger. Not really satisfying, but it never let me down. :)

Fedya wrote:
Bayu: You're suggesting that the good reason to play a pincer on :b13: is because I have a stone in the top right, and not because, well, I have no other idea what to do? As you can see, I still have difficulty figuring out which joseki to play in any given situation.

Picking a joseki comes a move later. First thing is deciding on pincer or not.
A nice thing about hoshis is their property of working great with pincers on both adjacent corners. That's oversimplified, but still. If the top right corner were white, your pincer would end up with fewer friends and the resulting group would be under heavier fire. A pincer might still be correct, but you have to face the consequences. Pincers usually create weak groups. Hence I prefer pincers with some back up (I keep the ones without friends for emergency tactics).

Fedya wrote:
:b17: No, I obviously don't know what I'm doing. :oops: :mad: If I did, would I have played that move?


The move is not so bad if you know what you're doing. Check it out on eidogo/Kogo. And your opponent fell for it ;) I hope I wouldn't have fallen for it myself, but I wouldn't bet on it.
For all the close pincers to hoshi and 3-4, it's quite handy to have a single joseki line memorised (4 in total. It's not a phone directory). You can still deviate (and if you see a reason to do so, you should. Or your opponent will take you by surprise) but it helps to add more lines to your repertoire when analysing your games as you can put them into relation with something you already know. I often don't know neither which joseki to pick (if I happen to have to pleasure to know a selection of josekis to choose from, that is). I made up my guidelines and I'll study this at some later stage when there is need or interest. (There is always the fallback that you can choose a joseki you think the opponent won't know neither) It wasn't an obstacle for me to overcome 6 kyu. Your average joe opponent is probably as clueless. I don't see a deficit here.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #370 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:33 am 
Oza

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bayu wrote:
Fedya wrote:
First, I don't think I would ever have thought of those second-line moves that skydyr mentioned when I played the 3-3 invasion on :b35:.

Well, you should. It is one of the easy joseki, so there is no excuse. No branching, all quite natural and easy to remember (you have to form a L+2 group with sente moves). Senseis is probably your friend here. And if you don't know about the L+x groups, then that's also homework.


I just want to reinforce this point. This second line hane connect in sente is a very common technique that Fedya seems to repeatedly overlook (there was another one sometime ago with an approach stome rather than cutting stone on the outside). It's something that should be second nature by mid sdk. To remedy that, I suggest Fedya collects joseki examples and reviews his and dan/pro games on the lookout for examples. To get things started here's one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . 9 . . .
$$ | . . 8 6 7 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


Last edited by Uberdude on Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #371 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:07 am 
Judan

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Ko?
$$ | . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . .
$$ | . 1 X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . 3 . 2 . . .
$$ | . 4 . . . . .
$$ --------------[/go]


White made ko. Can you do better?

Clarifying edit: Can you do better as White?

Merry Christmas! :D

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #372 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:07 am 
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:b47: should have been at A3?

And my comments about the second-line moves were specifically about skydyr's suggestions of D2 and E2 on :b35:, when I invaded at C3; not later moves after the 3-3 invasion. Those are the moves I wouldn't have thought of. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #373 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:46 am 
Oza

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Fedya wrote:
And my comments about the second-line moves were specifically about skydyr's suggestions of D2 and E2 on :b35:, when I invaded at C3; not later moves after the 3-3 invasion.

Ah, that's not so bad actually, as I don't think they are good moves. Those 2nd line approaches are common against a 4-4 plus small knight's move but not the large knight because when white defends the corner it is bigger and more efficient. So the 3-3 and 3-4 attach are the standard ways to invade the game shape. Nevertheless, missing that 2nd line sente hane connect was very important later. If it's not something you know by heart as a phrase in your Go vocabulary, you should at least want to play there if it is sente. So do the reading to see that it is indeed sente because if white captures the stone on the left you cut and white can't save both sides. That's the meaning of that outside atari of 41.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #374 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:42 am 
Judan

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Fedya wrote:
:b47: should have been at A3?


Good! That move is better than :b47: in the game. Here's why.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Better ko for Black
$$ | . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . .
$$ | 2 X O X . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | X . X O . . .
$$ | 3 X 1 O . d .
$$ | 4 W 6 a b . .
$$ --------------[/go]


If the corner becomes a ko, it is better for Black than the ko in the game, because if Black wins the ko at 6 the corner territory is bigger and he has a sente with Ba - Wb, B6 - Wd. :)

What I meant was, can you do better as White? :)

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Post #375 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:45 am 
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:w46: should have been at A3 too, shouldn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #376 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:47 am 
Judan

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How big is the ko in the bottom left corner? Hard to say. Just in the corner it is a medium size yose. But if Black lives White has to worry about his four stones on the left side. IMO, I don't think that Black should fight the ko just yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Ignore the ko?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X X . . . . . . X . . X 2 . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | 5 X X O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | X 3 X O . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For instance, in this variation Black secures the top right corner and gets a strong attack against the :wc: stones in exchange for the ko. :)

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #377 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:47 am 
Judan

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Fedya wrote:
:w46: should have been at A3 too, shouldn't it?


Bingo! :D

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #378 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:10 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Thickness, reduction, other concepts that you have difficulty with! Maybe you should forget about concepts and just fight like hell. :)


Granted, I didn't quite fight like hell, but in this game, it seems like every time I tried to play a move that wasn't passive, the result was that I got smacked down hard, immediately. This happens to me all too often when I play moves that aren't passive. :mad: It also has thickness that doesn't work, and a pincer attack that goes wrong. Where have we seen those things before?

After the game, I was worried that I had screwed up on :b49: and cost myself a chance to win. That's because I was thinking White would passively play S16 in response to S14. If White simply descends to T15, Black is toast.


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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #379 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:57 pm 
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Fedya wrote:
OK, where are my stones going to get eyes?

How about the whole center of the board?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #380 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:58 pm 
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You had some good ideas in this game, just the execution might have been a little off.

Move 17: As you commented, this move isn't very likeable - indeed it's slow and on the second line, so you only want to play it if there's a good reason, one such possible reason being if white could connect and this move is needed to keep white separated, as you mention. So, reading exercise for you: If you omit this move, can white connect his group up to S4?

Move 33: Your wall has some strength, but it's not so thick that it can survive or stay intact when surrounded without any additional help. The game move leaves a bad relationship from O17 to L15 that can easily be cut ("crooked horse" jump), which would not be a problem if the wall were iron-thick, but is a problem if the wall also needs to maintain a connection to outside. How about L16 or M16 instead, which leaves a better connection there? If white then tries to break through leftward it seems like you can cut him and fight.

Move 37: Yes neither the net nor ladder work, so don't try them - don't play out the broken ladder if you know it's not working. Even cut, your wall still has a fighting resource available. Exercise: Find a move that threatens something against white, such that if white plays the obvious defense, you can then capture the cutting stone, and if white saves his cutting stone, you can hurt white back.

Hint:
Peep at something.

Answer:
Peep at Q12. If white connects, then P15 cleanly captures white's cutting stone. If white extends at P15, then Q11 cuts and kills the two white stones on the right.

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