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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #401 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:41 pm 
Oza

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Fedya, compare the size of black's moyo and how many eyes white has in your new diagram versus old one.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #402 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:17 pm 
Judan

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It may not be best, but consider this play for :w28:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now if Black cuts:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Sacrifice
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 3 1 O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 0 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #403 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:25 pm 
Judan
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Hi Bill,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 1 . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . ? ? . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I wonder if B would attack on a big scale ( fuzzy area ) ;
not sure about the peep (a) first.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #404 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:27 pm 
Lives in sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Something like this would not be bad for White. 9 is maybe not the best move, since Black will probably get to fix the cut on top naturally, but that means that 1 should be on the lower side, not the right.

Yeah, as Bill points out, the problem is that you don't need to spend a whole lot of moves making a base on the right. You should play towards the center instead.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #405 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:24 pm 
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I'm finally going to post one of the games I was referring to when I last posted. I played it about two weeks ago and have come back to it several times since trying to gain insight into where I went wrong. In this one there are quite a few moves that I wouldn't really have considered before, notably the capping move on the bottom followed by the attachment, something that's clearly out of my comfort zone. There's also the invasion of the large knight's move in the top right, where I played one of the fourth line moves as opposed to the third line move halfway between both stones which is what I'd normally play (and what I did in the top left); that's another move I wouldn't have tried in the past. And I feel like I should have gotten a good result from the eye-stealing tesuji in the top center followed by harassing that group out into the center -- make territory while attacking and all that. But when I erred on White 146 by playing a move that enabled Black to kill me rather than getting a seki, I was already behind and I don't think there was any way to catch up by that point.

Part of the problem comes from not knowing how to deal with the bottom right, despite the fact that I had already played a reduction on the bottom. I wound up with a floating group in the center that was lucky to live, and Black got a surprisingly large amount of territory. I'm thinking that :w36: was a big mistake in that I could have used that opportunity to play in the bottom right somewhere instead of a needless defensive move in the top left.

Overall, though, I'm more perplexed than frustrated. I don't feel as though I obviously blundered (apart from move 146), and more than that I feel as though I did the right things conceptually by not engaging in overplay invasions. However, I wound up not getting much from all of my attacks, and didn't really comprehend this anywhere on the board until it was too late to alter the result.


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Post #406 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:28 pm 
Judan
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New Year's Eve game.

:w12: He ignored your cap; did you consider to follow up locally.

:w14: Had :w10: been instead a shoulder hit, say L4, and he ignored it, would you have followed up with it.

:w18: Your notes here. You were aware of the local follow-ups to :w10: ,
but maybe waited too long.

:w20: Seems heavy.

:w24: Did you have any follow-up to :w22: .
What does B do if you peep at G4 ?

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #407 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:29 pm 
Judan

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I am going to make some comments, but let me say again, bravo! Keep stretching yourself and you will grow. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #408 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:43 pm 
Judan

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Go to move 162.



Edit: Made a better variation. :) Same result, though.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #409 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:51 pm 
Gosei
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I'd like to comment on the fight on the right side. In your notes you commented that something started to go wrong when Black split your top stones from the right side. This is correct. The crucial point came at :w58:. White and Black had just exchanged :b1: through :b7: below. The question comes up how should White continue here? Obviously White needs to do something about the cutting points, but what? This involves making judgments about the relative value of :w2:, :w6:, and the marked stone (ignoring :w4: as a sacrifice stone, at least for now). In addition, we should consider White's larger term goals. In the game White connected at :w8:. Let's make sure that we understand what this means. By connecting at 8, White is putting priority on the right side, specifically the edge. Now if Black plays "b" there is no threat and no need to answer. Can this possibly the most important point on the board right now or is this just a mistake on White's part? Black continues with :b9: and White has nothing better than :w10:, leading to the center stones being cut off. White 8 was a mistake in direction.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc What is Important?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . X . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . X O O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 1 W 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 b . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . X X O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So what happens if White connects at 1 below? Here White values the Q11 stone more highly than the S9 stone. This is far more appropriate than the actual game continuation. If Black tries to push now, White can hane at 3. Black can try pushing from behind but White can resist here with 7. After Black cuts with 8, White can simply play the diagonal move at 9, aiming at both an attack on the marked Black stones with "a" and the cutting point at "b" (note that value of the marked stone). Black can not protect against both threats.

White can even go along with Black and continue with 7 at 8. Black keeps pushing White from behind and can cut White off from the center but only by letting White into the upper right corner.

Clearly the second diagram would have been better for White than the game continuation. White has grasped the idea that the center is more important than the side at this point in the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . B . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . B O O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . B B . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . O 7 8 X O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . a . 9 . 6 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . b 2 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . X X O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A little while later you played :w1: below and thought it a very good move. It was. However, when Black answered with :b2: you had to realize that the purpose of the original move was fully realized. You had destroyed Black's eye shape here in sente. The follow-up play had to be in the center. White plays something like :w3: below in order to get full value from :w1:. If Black jumps out with :b4:, White continues in the center with :w5:. White starts to link up the upper and lower side stones while harassing Black. In the game, White "forces" Black to isolate both White's upper side stones and the lower side stones. This was another mistake in direction.

Note that if Black plays "a" at any time, White can answer with "b".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . X X O . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . b . X O O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . 1 2 X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . a . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . 4 . 3 . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . X X O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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This post by ez4u was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #410 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:51 am 
Judan

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Important lessons from Dave (ez4u). :)

A few more comments. :)


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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #411 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Wow. A lot to go through. :tmbup: Apologies for not responding earlier, but I was busy with other stuff yesterday evening, and then having to get up at 4:30 AM for work plays havoc with my schedule.

First, for Ed. When Black played the tenuki on :b11:, I naturally figured I didn't need to spend another move there until he responded. I guess it's a question of whether I want to make the exchange of putting pressure on him on the bottom for letting him put pressure on that stone in the top left. Unless there's a sequence on the bottom that's sente for White. My understanding of reductions like the capping move isn't good enough yet to find such a sequence.

When I played :w18:, I figured perhaps Black would hane at L4, after which I'd respond with K4 -- the ladder is in my favor, so that and J3 putting pressure on the left would be miai. Of course, Black didn't play that way, so I had to figure out what to do next. I looked through Attack and Defense again, and the impression I get is that pulling back like I did is acceptable. After :b21:, though, I didn't have much idea what to do with the group. All I could see was something floating, and where would it get eyes? (That's the problem I have with the capping move in general, trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do with it if it's not going to get an eye on the side, and why I've tended to overplay with invasions in general.)

Bill:

I haven't looked through the second review you posted, although your comments on move 162 are enlightening. That's the sort of thing I'd have to spend a long time trying to find if I were playing on one of the turn-based servers. Obviously, I need to keep working on my reading! (Don't we all.)

Dave's comments on :w58: might be even more enlightening. I've said quite a few times in the past, and this game seems to be a good example of it, that I have a tendency to play sequences that as best I can tell seem like a good idea, only to look at the board 20 moves later and find that I didn't get as much profit as I would have liked, and where on earth did I go wrong not to get that profit? This is an instructive example of just where I went wrong. And then with the eye-stealing tesuji I obviously followed up both from the wrong side and too slowly. I took me too long to see that the top right group might be in any danger. Not the first time I've brought that concept up, either. :mad:

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #412 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:24 pm 
Judan

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Fedya wrote:
Bill:

I haven't looked through the second review you posted, although your comments on move 162 are enlightening. That's the sort of thing I'd have to spend a long time trying to find if I were playing on one of the turn-based servers. Obviously, I need to keep working on my reading! (Don't we all.)


Please note that I did not start with reading, but with seeing. That is, with seeing a living 4 point eye for Black. To see that, all you have to do is connect the dots. :) Then the reading is directed at the question of how to prevent that.

Also, if my reading is correct, when White tries to kill and allows his corner stones to be cut off, Black should not block on the first line and make a big eye, because White could force Black to take the hane stone and make a ko. Black does better to make the small eye, because in the eye vs. no eye contest, that gives him more shared liberties. Hey! That should be a proverb. :)

Quote:
Dave's comments on :w58: might be even more enlightening.


Indeed. :D

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #413 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Looking at Bill's review, it looks like I missed a lot. :oops: The other interesting thing is that I was analyzing the game, I spent a lot of time thinking about the lower right since I felt like I gave up a lot of territory there. Yet nobody else commented on it, as though perhaps it wasn't as important as I thought.

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Post #414 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:34 pm 
Oza

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Fedya wrote:
Looking at Bill's review, it looks like I missed a lot. :oops: The other interesting thing is that I was analyzing the game, I spent a lot of time thinking about the lower right since I felt like I gave up a lot of territory there. Yet nobody else commented on it, as though perhaps it wasn't as important as I thought.


Well, black established a zone there early on and it was strengthened by subsequent play. It is to be expected that this turn into territory by the time white pulled the stone out. Being able to live there was good, since it meant that black just had a big corner instead of a quarter of the board, and should be viewed as a local success. Certainly by move 100 or so, there was no killer sequence to make it all go away that I can tell. Part of the consequence of living in the center was that it became territory. Had you done something in the corner, even assuming it worked it's likely the center would have become black territory. So it goes.

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Post #415 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:14 pm 
Judan

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Fedya wrote:
Looking at Bill's review, it looks like I missed a lot. :oops:


No shame, there. When you become 5 kyu you'll still miss a lot. ;) SDKs miss a lot. I miss a lot.

To my eyes your play in this game looked a lot like what I would call go. :D You are not used to attacking, and so you have a lot to learn in that department. But it is there for you to learn, and you can learn it. You have a lot to learn that players no better than you have learned, because they have a different style. When you do learn it, and learn to apply it, you will be a stronger player, perhaps by more than a stone or two. :)

Quote:
The other interesting thing is that I was analyzing the game, I spent a lot of time thinking about the lower right since I felt like I gave up a lot of territory there. Yet nobody else commented on it, as though perhaps it wasn't as important as I thought.


Well, in a way you already made the decision not to play (at least right away) in the bottom right, with your choices of :w20: and :w22:. But because of those choices you have the attack against the Black group on the side starting with the peep. And after that, with a weak Black group and a strong White group, you will probably be able to go into the bottom right corner. If you go in prematurely, you might end up with Black attacking two White groups.

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