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 Post subject: Tami's Way
Post #1 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Hi everybody,

I'm 39, and have been about 1k KGS since 2007. However, I gained fresh hope of being able to improve recently, and so this is what I'm doing.

Frequent Things

Tsumego - challenging but not too difficult
It is like reading music or Japanese - the more you challenge yourself, the easier it becomes ("effortful study", keeping it in the "cognitive domain", etc.)

Study/Play Handicap Go - if I could turn the clock back, I would immerse myself in it!
Handicap go teaches you so much about strategy it's unbelievable. Honte, light play, connection, surrounding, breaking free, timing, shape, haengma, direction, attitude, it's all there, in black and white (!), because the handicap makes each player's task easy to understand

Study High-Level Games - little and often
To gain ideas, to learn about shape and flow

Play - always try my best, always seek challenging games (i.e., stronger opponents, or giving handicap to weaker players), reviewing objectively and with the help of stronger players wherever possible
Again, to keep myself in the cognitive domain, to encounter new situations and to learn how to handle them, to seek the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them

Compass - this is my very own idea :razz:
To enact changes in thinking and procedure, to get rid of bad habits, to remind myself of important information

Occasional Things

Maintain a database of useful techniques and information, such as joseki and L&D patterns
This is portable and makes review easy

Mine online writings for ideas
If you read carefully, there are many interesting ideas and insights to be found

Study Habits

These are extremely important. I think the biggest causes of failure are trying too hard, and, conversely, failing to focus on the task in hand.

Do One Thing at A Time - You have to pay attention to what you are doing NOW, if you want to remember it and learn, and do it to your full ability. You cannot study tsumego while listening to music or watching TV (though listening to music, first, might put you in the right mood). You lose games when you start thinking about other things.

Short Bursts - Working memory can only deal with so much at any one time, and this often decreases as you get older. You get tired much more quickly if you continue trying after your WM becomes full, and this can result in neurotransmitter depletion.

Frequent Breaks - Breaks enable new ideas in the WM to begin to transfer to the long-term memory, and they enable the processes of Relational Memory to begin to work. They also replenish neurotransmitters, and keep you in best condition.

Spaced Review - This is known to strengthen recall greatly

Stay Out Of The Comfort Zone! - You get better at the guitar by learning new chords, scales and playing techniques. You learn a language by learning new vocabulary and grammar, and by taking on its unique difficulties of expression and register. I got much better at singing after joining a top choir in which I was one of the worst members. Why, then, would anybody think they could get better at go just by playing games at the same level for 20 years or more?

Expect It to Take Time - I studied Japanese intensively for a year, got off the plane and found I didn't understand a word of it. I kept trying, and after my second year here, I started to get the hang of it. You may be able to acquire a lot of information, but you have to allow time for the brain to make sense of it all. If you focus on your rank graph, and not your go itself, you'll only slow yourself down.

Avoid All-Or-Nothing Thinking - I don't have to play go only or play music only or study languages only. In fact, they support each other. When I get frustrated with songwriting or guitar practice, playing go gives me a welcome change. When I get frustrated with go, studying Japanese becomes fun and rewarding. When I get frustrated with studying Japanese, my guitar is waiting for me, and out comes a new song :cool:

Help Others - It gives you great perspective when you stop looking at yourself, and try to help other people. It's also much more fun, in general, to forget about your own feelings and to concentrate on other people and other subjects (do you know the saying "Pleasure to be got, has to be forgot?") Even if you couldn't get any better, wouldn't it be cool to play a part in helping another player to grow? Who, in the last analysis, makes the bigger contribution to any field - the King or Queen sitting alone at the top of the mountain, or the guide who helps others to climb it?


OUTCOMES SO FAR

19 August 2011

It's difficult to know whether KGS 1k is the same now as it was in 2007 or in 2009. I am confident, though, that Tami 2011 would defeat Tami 2007. Besides, I don't care what my rank is, anyway. What I do know is that I can take on stronger players (taking the appropriate handicaps) and win! Actually, I find it much harder to give handicap, but I think I'll learn from that challenge, too (up to now, I haved loved thick moves, but now I have to learn about light play) I get more pleasure out of the game, and when I lose, I no longer get angry, I get stronger. If I don't become stronger from this point, it won't be because I cannot, but because I let myself get distracted. But I will never stop believing in the possibility of becoming stronger, because I will never give up on myself!

It occurred to me that solving tsumego has changed my tactical thinking in a fundamental way. Up until now, I always thought of it in terms of finding the key move and reading out the forced moves until the situation became clear. Now, I have a better appreciation of what different suji actually do under different circumstances. To summarise, if you need to maximise your own liberties, then hane, kosumi, descent, and nobi will be your friends; if you need to reduce the partner's liberties, then hane, throw-in, slapping moves, butting moves, and sacrifices will be among your most useful tools. If it's about making eyes, kakatsugi will help, if it's about stealing eyes, placements, angle points and 2-1 points often become attractive. It's not so much pattern-matching, as learning to identify the situation and knowing what tools are normally appropriate for that particular job.

Also, the Nihon Kiin has a branch in Kure! And it's rather a nice place. There's a big crowd of players, free tea, a drinks dispenser, and a TV showing satellite coverage of go tournaments. Smokers use a sealed room at the back when it's time for a tobacco break. It's good to feel real stones and wood again, and to see my opponent. It's a good chance to get to know older Japanese people. The internet is proving wonderful for go fans, but playing in any kind of club gives you a sense of human connection and warmth that's missing from go servers.

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Last edited by Tami on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Tami's Way
Post #2 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:00 pm 
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Losing a lot of games very heavily :lol: But that's because I'm rethinking my whole approach to the game from top to bottom. It isn't exactly fun, but it is to be expected.

I think one problem I have been having is trying to simplify too much. There is probably no overarching principle that you can adhere to. Rather, go is a series of case-by-case decisions.

The response to my "Principles and Concrete Knowledge" thread was way beyond expectations. I'm not sure I've learned much from it other than that people have very different views about the importance of learned knowledge and principles, and that in every position you have to apply the reading test. That is, your move might be very principled, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't work!

Anyway, the thing that I would really like to do is to pay attention to defence: to make honte and mamori the foundations of my style. So far, in attempting to do this, I have learned a lot about my shortcomings:

* I find it difficult to know what is weak and what is light
* I find it hard to distinguish flexible and thin
* I need to assess each position on a case-by-case basis - you don't play by prescription, you recall principles according to the situation in front of you, and you read

Finally, for now, I need to learn when to take a break from playing. If I'm tired or depressed, it becomes very hard to play rationally, and it's tough enough trying to change your style without the additional pain of going on tilt.

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Last edited by Tami on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Tami wrote:
go is a series of case-by-case decisions.
* I need to assess each position on a case-by-case basis - you don't play by prescription, you recall principles according to the situation in front of you, and you read
Yes.
Tami wrote:
If I'm tired or depressed, it becomes very hard to play rationally
Yes. Under those conditions, hard to play, period. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Tami's Way
Post #4 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:00 am 
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What is heavy? What is light? What is thin? What is flexible? What is weak? What is strong?

I don't think there are any foolproof tests you could apply, so I guess it's a judgmement call every time. However, attempting to address these things is better than not trying.

For now, I think I will use these rules of thumb:

Weak <--> Strong is a sliding scale, not a black-white, binary thing. However, the opposite ends of the scale might be defined by having or not having a base, having or not having "runspace" to flee into, having friends or enemies in the local area.

Light would be easy to throw away. Any stone whose purpose is spent or whose purpose is not clear is probably light. Personally, I find the fuseki the most maddening phase of the game with respect to this. They say urgent moves before big ones, but too often my urgent threats are treated lightly by my strong opponents :lol:

Flexible means having options. Miai is flexible by definition.

Thin means having defects. You don't necessarily have to slice through the weak point, though, the moment you see it. Like aji, you can wait until the time is right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Was 1 an urgent threat or a "pass"
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . 7 a . . . . . , . . . . . , O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this diagram, my opponent was 1 dan and playing white. I played the base-stealing move at 1, and he replied, which meant profit for me and a weak group to aim at. He played mamori with 6, and I took the big wariuchi at 7. That all worked out well. But what if, instead of replying at 2, he had said "The two stones are light, go ahead and capture them slowly while I take A and other big points?" If I could capture both white's stones in one stroke it would be very good, but I can find no follow up which does not look slow and which does not smell of bad aji. Therefore, I have to conclude my 1 was actually premature, and that I should have waited, taking big points in the meantime.


One thing I do find helpful, when playing online, is to speak my thoughts. Perhaps you should not do it when playing in a tournament, but putting your thoughts into words means you have to work your way through the issues before you, instead of just clicking where feels right.

Gosh, I am a very strange woman. Spending hours sitting in front of a computer playing go and talking to myself. Why couldn't I have been a normal girl? :lol:

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Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:


Last edited by Tami on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tami's Way
Post #5 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Okay, so while I don't know the solutions, at least I'm slowly becoming aware of the problems :) There are obviously some fundamental principles that I don't understand very well. Probably I am repeating myself, but this is my study journal so it's okay. Not only do I need to acquire new knowledge and stretch my reading ability, but I also need totally to rework my understanding of strategy.

One issue really exercising me at this moment is "What is urgent? What is light?". SL says one aspect of being urgent is that an urgent point tends to change the dynamic of the game by making one side weaker and one side stronger at the same time. So, interpreted through this prism, my previous example has to urgent, after all!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Was 1 an urgent threat or a "pass"
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


1 makes white weaker, and it will make black stronger on the right. If white plays at A, then I will push up at B and I will get points and thickness. White's a may look fast, but it's only framework, while black's gains would be real.

You can throw away one stone, you can even throw away two or three connected stones, but you cannot just abandon an entire area. If white played at A, then a whole area is being abandoned - it's not just the stones white is giving up. In other words, 1 must be an urgent threat because it ignoring it not only strengthens black but also leaves white with a large local loss.

Well, I think the best thing to do now is to look at some pro games critically, paying special attention to issues of urgency and lightness. For the time being, I will say that treating something lightly means

* Your opponent may gain, but you do not lose much

but something is urgent when

* Your opponent not only gains, but you also lose a lot
* Failing to play there would result in a serious change in status

In a nutshell: my new hypothesis is that light and urgent depend on gain or loss. If you can't decide whether to answer or play tenuki, you should ask yourself what the gains and losses are after the sequel.

Enough for now!

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Last edited by Tami on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #6 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:20 am 
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Tami, while I wouldn't quibble too much with the ingredients of your thinking, I do think the proportions and the mix are leading to a rather unusual cake.

Of course, as with the Red Queen, light and urgent may mean here what you want them to mean, but if they are intended to have a more mainstream meaning, I'd make a point about urgent in particular. (I distrust the SL definition, too, BTW)

You appear to be defining urgent on the basis of materialism (profit and loss) while thinking only of forcing moves. Both perfectly good criteria, but not really to do with urgency.

The key point of urgency is timing. It's like the American lady who asks God to grant her patience. She wants it NOW! It has nothing to do with whether the opponent will answer. It's urgent simply because it has to be played NOW. Further, a move that is (or risks being) premature cannot be urgent. In the case you show. Black 1 is certainly powerful, but how do you know yet where the best point to attack is? Since you can't know that yet in such an open position, any move is premature. You should be looking elsewhere on the board to create conditions whereby the best point to attack on the right becomes more obvious.

Two other things conspire against Black 1 being called urgent. One is that White is not likely to play there in a hurry. If he plays in the Black positions on either side, a splitting attack will develop and the White 2-space extension then will really suffer. If White does add a move to his 2-space extension, which would add nothing significant to his territory, Black can defend one of his virtual territories on either side - that would be territorially big.

Furthermore, if Black attacks now, of course he can get a locally superior result - so he should, since he starts with a 5:2 stone ratio. But White has room to get some sort of shape, and any strength White gets here means he can look forward to playing with relative impunity inside either of Black's still open areas, above and below.

In summary, this may be a high-priority area for Black in terms of his long-term planning, but it's hardly urgent.

If I may try a slightly different approach, think of areas as high definition or low definition. There are no areas here of high definition, where it is crystal clear at this stage how play should proceed. But there a several areas of low definition. In such cases the usual advice is to play in the widest (lowest definition) area. If you get there first, you get more say in how the final picture sharpens up, simply because there is less interference from the opponent. A play on the left side looks tempting to me.

That's the main point. But I'd also quibble with introducing "light". That's more of a middle-game or at least tactical concept. It has little place at this early stage of the game when there is still some fuseki left to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Tami's Way
Post #7 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:17 am 
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Thank you very much John. That explanation really helps, especially the part about "high definition" and "low definition". :tmbup:

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Post #8 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:38 am 
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These groups are always difficult to handle, I always mess it up... I think that actually the game variation is not so great, even after white replied. Reason is that white gets kind of strong towards the outside.

Maybe you could try something like this? (11 at 'a')

The point is that you do not want to randomly spring to an attack here until there is a clear goal. Otherwise, what you think is a nice attack could later become aji keshi quite easily. In a variation like below, suddenly sealing black in looks much nicer than attacking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #9 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:06 pm 
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A strange thing happened when I was doing a tsumego yesterday.

Up to now, my experience of reading tactics looked like this: "If he goes there, I'll go here, then..." This was reading move-by-move, in a deliberate way.

The problem with that approach is that I, for one, tend to lose track of my thinking.

But yesterday the variations started flowing in front of my mind's eye, like a stream of water. It was like reading a sentence rather than one word after another. I solved several problems like this, and it felt like the more I let things flow, the easier it was to spot potential issues within the position. I later tried applying it to playing, and it made decision-making a lot easier - the flow would be broken if I considered unreasonable moves, and would broaden if I considered better ones.

It may be that when you read the "flow" you might not see details so exactly, but grasp the meaning of the situation much more quickly, and so avoid moves that lead to mistakes. As with reading a sentence, you don't deliberate over every word, but you look more closely if you encounter some word you don't know.

Can anybody relate to this? Am I on to something?

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Post #10 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:34 am 
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I've experienced what you described once or twice before. If I had to describe it, it would be something like a silent vision instead of a noisy monologue. Not thinking but seeing the moves play out, then if it doesn't work, silently trying other variations. But I don't know if that's what you experienced too.

Anyway it feels like something to try and pursue and make permanent. Reading like this instead of 'If he plays there I play here' feels much more powerful since you're conserving processing power by leaving out the mental chatter.

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Post #11 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:08 pm 
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Exactly! I tried to explain this experience various times at SL or L19 but didn't get much feedback. If you don't speak a whole sentence mentally when imagining a move, it is so much faster and so much easier not to lose track after 4-5 moves.

My favourite source for second hand experience (Hikaru no Go) has a scene in the first real match of Akira and Hikaru where Hikaru reads out a sequence to see how to answer, but all you see in the anime is a fast animated playthrough, no talking. While this is due to the format, I believe it captures the feeling quite well you have when you progress from verbalised reading to visualised reading.

Thank you for sharing.


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Post #12 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:11 pm 
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I think you're just getting better at instantly seeing if a situation is good or not.

This is a really good thing, too. I just wish I had it with the first 20 moves as much as I have it in local fights ><

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Post #13 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:56 pm 
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I really like tapir's spin on this: the switch from verbal reading to visual reading. :salute:

This is turn leads to other ways to describe it.

It's like when you learn a foreign language, and begin to think in that language rather than mentally translate.

It's like jamming on the guitar, and beginning to make chord shapes, scales and licks just by audiating them for a split second and knowing they'll sound good - as opposed to thinking "I`m playing a D major chord, so I`ll play a D major pentatonic with a bluegrassy inflection on the b here".

To be honest, I can only do this "flow reading" intermittently, and sometimes I make gross mistakes. But, I think it has to be one of those skills where the more you practice it, the easier and more natural it gets. It's like a switch of gears in the mind, and takes some getting used to. The point is, I'm seeing possibilities now that would never have entered my head before, and I know that I'm on to something important.

One caveat is that if you know the relevant tesuji, you know it, and you can keep the flow; if you don't know it, then you have to learn it. If things ought to flow but don't, then it could be a sign that there's a subtle change of move order or kikashi or other technique needed.

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Post #14 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:19 pm 
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I can only do the "flow reading" intermittently. Sometimes long and exciting variations flash before my eyes, and sometimes I can only plod for 2 or 3 ply before getting confused. I see more, but I make really terrible mistakes.

A few years ago, I'd be extremely frustrated. Now, I accept this inconsistency as normal. Learning involves failure, and a lot of it. It takes time, too. You don't get significantly better at something in just a few weeks, even if you study a lot and make big changes to your understanding. My guitar playing has improved greatly since the beginning of this year, but for the past two years I have often wondered if I might have some kind of learning disability, given how maddeningly slowly I learned where all the notes are on the fretboard. Similarly, nowadays I find kanji easy to learn, but I had a terrible time mastering hiragana and katakana, and learning the first few hundred kanji was excruciating.

Whatever you learn, no matter how talented or untalented you may be, there will always be times when progress seems slow and you'll want to give up. It's like climbing Mount Fuji - the summit never seems to come into sight. That's the bad news. The good news is that if you keep going, you'll one day find a new level, and new views to enjoy.

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Last edited by Tami on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:40 pm 
Honinbo
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Tami wrote:
learning the first few hundred kanji was excruciating.
Yes, Tami, and here age is a huge factor. For learning thousands of Kanji/Chinese characters and tens of thousands of life-and-death shapes,
the differences between a 6-year-old, a 15-year-old, and a 40-year-old beginner are enormous and (quite?) universal. :)

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Post #16 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:29 am 
Lives in gote
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EdLee wrote:
Yes, Tami, and here age is a huge factor. For learning thousands of Kanji/Chinese characters and tens of thousands of life-and-death shapes,the differences between a 6-year-old, a 15-year-old, and a 40-year-old beginner are enormous and (quite?) universal


I'm not sure I agree, and I don't want to agree. Too many people give up on themselves too soon because they get a little bit older. I started studying Japanese in earnest in 2006, and I have just passed the JLPT N3. That's not very high, but it is certainly isn't easy, and it is a useful level, in that I can read books and understand what's going on in everyday situations. What if I had just said "I'm in my mid-30s now, so it's way past my best time for learning"?

It was difficult getting the first sets of kanji under my belt, and I hated how I kept forgetting characters even after writing them out over and over. But, then I bought A Guide to Remembering the Kanji by Kenneth Henshall, and found his approach gave me a foothold. Once I had that, I moved forward.

I don't like being weak at go, but I haven't accepted it as a permanent fact. Yesterday I met a Japanese 3-kyu in his mid-70s who is still trying to improve. He hasn't given up on himself. I admire that attitude - it's called living. It's facing up to reality and doing your best to achieve what you can.

Age may be an issue, but I'd soon be dead than accept it as an insurmountable obstacle to making something of myself.

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Last edited by Tami on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #17 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:13 am 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis

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Post #18 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:45 am 
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39 is young...

I did a third PT degree at 41 and completed it before any of my younger peers (and held down a full time job + 2 young kids). It just takes discipline and critical evaluation. Very few 6 year olds are able to define optimum learning patterns - they might do OK if you steer them.

Actually, having known a lot of world tramps I am amazed at how slowly kids learn new languages. Considering they have the continual focus of parents driven to communicate with them. One of my very bilingual colleagues reckons that he can sound fluent (in patchs) in a western language in around three months. Mainly because he knows how to learn languages.

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Post #19 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Tami, I am likely older than you and I have not given up on improving at Go. :)
I also said none of the things you mentioned: I never said to give up on learning.
I think John or someone else posted recently that an 80-year-old Japanese lady finally made 4 dan in Go.

All I said is age is a huge factor, and it is: if we look at the starting age
of all professional sports and in pro Go and chess, the age factor is indisputable.
So as far as an "insurmountable obstacle," I would say making pro is one at our age.

But not for learning or improving at Go. Good luck! :mrgreen:

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Post #20 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:44 pm 
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Maybe you need to work harder at a higher age, for the same result. But that's nowhere near the same thing as improvement being impossible.

So long as your memory is still functional, you should obviously be able to learn.

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