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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #81 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:03 pm 
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Hey yishn! I have some additional feedback for you. :salute:

Recently, I needed to take a marked up SGF file with comments and variations and upload it to a go server to work with a teacher to review it. I didn't want my cluttered self review with opponent to show up, so I had to manually go through it, trimming the variations off by hand and deleting the comments.

I believe that there are a few SGF editors out there that offer half of this functionality. SmartGo has a manual editor where you can remove tags, one by one, like the hotspot tag or circle, square, etc. I also think MultiGo has an option to remove all variations and reduce to the main line only.

An option to remove all variations, all tags, and all comments (or three options) would be a pretty nice addition to the sabaki client, in my humble opinion.

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Post #82 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:17 pm 
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Koosh wrote:
An option to remove all variations, all tags, and all comments (or three options) would be a pretty nice addition to the sabaki client, in my humble opinion.

I agree. This would also be nice for cleaning up files to be analyzed by Crazy Stone, which doesn't handle variations very well.

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Post #83 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:58 pm 
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Good ideas! :tmbup:

I added them to the issues list.

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Post #84 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:17 pm 
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I tried the latest version out. It's looking pretty good!

Two things I'd like:
1.) The navigation menu provides functionality to jump to the end or beginning of the game, but I like to have a graphical bar where I can skip ahead a few moves or to the end of the game. The only graphical way to do this that I could figure out, outside of the menu, was to click through the graphical game tree after I displayed it. I'd like to have just a small bar with some arrows to skip ahead a few moves and to the end of the game, like many other editors have.

2.) I like the option to copy the ascii diagram, but it looks like there are no line breaks. So if I copy an ascii diagram and paste it into a text editor, it's just one line of text, rather than a more readable block of text having line breaks.

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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #85 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:07 am 
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@Kirby:

1. If you have the game tree opened, there's also a slider to the right which lets you skim through the game. It also has some arrows which you can click on to go through the game move by move. You can use the arrow keys (up and down) as well.

2. I can copy ASCII diagrams just fine (with linebreaks). Like this:

Code:
$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | O . O O X X . X . X X . O . O . O X . |
$$ | O . . , O O O X . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X O O . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | O . O O . a . W . . O . . . O X . X . |
$$ | O O X O X X X O . X X O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . O . O X O . X O X . . . . O . X |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X O O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X . , X . O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O O X . . X . X . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X X . O X . . . O X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . . . O X . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X O O X X O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . . O X . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #86 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:59 am 
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I've been using Sabaki a bit recently and it's very nice. One feature I would like that doesn't seem to exist yet is the equivalent of CGoban's "Shift up" and "Shift down" (I suppose in Sabaki that would be "Shift left" and "Shift right"), to take the current variation and move it up or down in the child list of its parent. When analyzing a position I like to shift promising moves up and moves that seem to have a refutation down. As far as I can tell, Sabaki's only feature in this area is "Make Main Variation".

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Post #87 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Another thing that would be nice is if nodes with SGF annotations such as "Good for Black" and "Good for White" could be displayed differently in the game tree, or even on the board (in the display of small translucent discs denoting child nodes).

When I use Sabaki to analyze I'd love to be able to easily glance at the game tree and see what branches I have already discarded in my mind as being bad for the side playing that move, or which ones I have decided are particularly good moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #88 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:46 pm 
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dfan wrote:
Another thing that would be nice is if nodes with SGF annotations such as "Good for Black" and "Good for White" could be displayed differently in the game tree, or even on the board (in the display of small translucent discs denoting child nodes).

When I use Sabaki to analyze I'd love to be able to easily glance at the game tree and see what branches I have already discarded in my mind as being bad for the side playing that move, or which ones I have decided are particularly good moves.


Interesting idea... How do you want the the nodes in the game tree be like? It's impossible to have all (5 position annotations) × (5 move annotations) = 25 different annotation states represented differently without having chaos. Also the library for graph drawing that I use is quite limited on what it can display...

As for board respresentation, I also have no idea how to represent 25 different annotation states on the board without cluttering the interface. Maybe just include annotations in the tooltip?

I'm playing with the idea of having the corresponding node in the game tree highlighted when hovering over a 'small translucent disc denoting child node' on the board. But currently it's not possible since I use a graphing library for the game tree and the library cannot do that. I might have to write the graph drawing logic myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #89 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:20 am 
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yishn wrote:
Interesting idea... How do you want the the nodes in the game tree be like? It's impossible to have all (5 position annotations) × (5 move annotations) = 25 different annotation states represented differently without having chaos. Also the library for graph drawing that I use is quite limited on what it can display...


Actually, something like CSS would be good, but probably difficult to program. Instead of DOM elements as in CSS, the selectors would be for SGF properties.

Something like this:

Code:
# good for Black
GB {
    color: red;
}

# good for White
GW {
    color: yellow;
}

# tesuji
TE {
    contents: "!";
}

# bad move
BM {
    contents: "?";
}



I'm not sure whether all the CSS axes (ancestors, siblings) etc. make sense in this respect.

But that's just a dream... :)

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Post #90 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:57 am 
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@Marcel: It's a very cool dream, though. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #91 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:37 pm 
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yishn wrote:
@Kirby:

1. If you have the game tree opened, there's also a slider to the right which lets you skim through the game. It also has some arrows which you can click on to go through the game move by move. You can use the arrow keys (up and down) as well.

2. I can copy ASCII diagrams just fine (with linebreaks). Like this:

Code:
$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | O . O O X X . X . X X . O . O . O X . |
$$ | O . . , O O O X . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X O O . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | O . O O . a . W . . O . . . O X . X . |
$$ | O O X O X X X O . X X O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . O . O X O . X O X . . . . O . X |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X O O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X . , X . O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O O X . . X . X . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X X . O X . . . O X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O O . . . O X . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X O O X X O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . . O X . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+


Re: #1.) I know there's the game tree. I find it awkward compared to the standard arrow buttons I see on most other SGF editors. I guess I can get used to it, but it's not natural to me.

Re: #2.) Whether I visually see linebreaks depends on where I paste it. If I paste the diagram code into the editor here, I also see the lines wrap visually as you do. But if I post into Windows notepad, the linebreaks don't show up. My assumption was that this was due to notepad in Windows using \r\n for linebreaks, instead of just \n. However, when I paste into another editor like notepad++ and show the linebreaks, it looks like both linebreak and carriage return are present...

So #2 isn't a big deal, I guess. It's just a bit different in behavior when I copy diagrams from Sabaki into Windows notepad vs. when I copy a diagram from L19 into notepad. In the former case, notepad doesn't show the breaks, whereas in the latter, the breaks can be seen.

It's probably notepad's fault, as other editors don't have this issue. :-)

Anyway, if you want to reproduce it, try to paste into Windows notepad.

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Post #92 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:43 pm 
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I should add, overall, I think you've done a very good job. I like the editor.

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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #93 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:13 am 
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Wow, I just discovered Sabaki, and it's delightful. The wabi-sabi animation is brilliant!

There are two very minor issues/points I'd like to mention for the macOS Sierra (10.12.2) version:

1) When I replay an SGF record, there is no sound of the stones striking the board. Please enable it because I really enjoy Sabaki's sound effects.

2) A minor issue regarding the game tree visualization. For example, let's say move 23 has an alternate placement, call it 23A. Shouldn't the line be connecting 23 and 23A directly? As it stands right now, 23A is connected visually to 22, which I personally find odd.

Or am I alone in my borderline OCD opinion?


Thanks!

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Post #94 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:35 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Re: #2.) Whether I visually see linebreaks depends on where I paste it. If I paste the diagram code into the editor here, I also see the lines wrap visually as you do. But if I post into Windows notepad, the linebreaks don't show up. My assumption was that this was due to notepad in Windows using \r\n for linebreaks, instead of just \n. However, when I paste into another editor like notepad++ and show the linebreaks, it looks like both linebreak and carriage return are present...

So #2 isn't a big deal, I guess. It's just a bit different in behavior when I copy diagrams from Sabaki into Windows notepad vs. when I copy a diagram from L19 into notepad. In the former case, notepad doesn't show the breaks, whereas in the latter, the breaks can be seen.

It's probably notepad's fault, as other editors don't have this issue. :-)

Anyway, if you want to reproduce it, try to paste into Windows notepad.


Yeah, I can reproduce this now. It's as you say, Sabaki uses \n for linebreaks. Notepad++ probably converts any linebreaks to your preference. I've fixed it, Sabaki now uses \r\n on Windows and \n everywhere else.

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Post #95 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:54 am 
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ewan1971 wrote:
2) A minor issue regarding the game tree visualization. For example, let's say move 23 has an alternate placement, call it 23A. Shouldn't the line be connecting 23 and 23A directly? As it stands right now, 23A is connected visually to 22, which I personally find odd.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the scenario, but the lines in the tree connect consecutive moves in a single "history". In the history expressed by the variation, the next move after White plays 22 is Black playing 23A.

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Post #96 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:21 am 
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dfan wrote:
ewan1971 wrote:
2) A minor issue regarding the game tree visualization. For example, let's say move 23 has an alternate placement, call it 23A. Shouldn't the line be connecting 23 and 23A directly? As it stands right now, 23A is connected visually to 22, which I personally find odd.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the scenario, but the lines in the tree connect consecutive moves in a single "history". In the history expressed by the variation, the next move after White plays 22 is Black playing 23A.


That's one way of looking at it conceptually, but visually this could get messy because in an SGF file with many variations, the tree quickly gets out of control, with diagonal lines running all over the place, making it difficult to trace the branches. I was going through one of AlphaGo's commented games, and I found it tiring very quickly.

Again, I'm only speaking for myself, but if plenty of others agree, then this visualization style should be added as an option.

An additional thought, I think it'd be better if the current/active variation is highlighted more prominently (with a different line color and/or thicker line width), and the inactive branches are more grayed out. This will also help reduce fatigue.


Last edited by ewan1971 on Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #97 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:32 am 
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Oh, one more thing, fuzzy-stone-placement animation isn't available when replaying a game. I'd love for it to be made available in replay mode. Thanks.

P.S. I use macOS Sierra (10.12.2).

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Post #98 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Hello Ewan, thank you for your kind words!

ewan1971 wrote:
2) A minor issue regarding the game tree visualization. For example, let's say move 23 has an alternate placement, call it 23A. Shouldn't the line be connecting 23 and 23A directly? As it stands right now, 23A is connected visually to 22, which I personally find odd.


Actually, I find that quite unintuitive... Clearly, lines should connect the precedent move with the next move? Otherwise, if a game has only one variation, there wouldn't be any lines at all?

ewan1971 wrote:
That's one way of looking at it conceptually, but visually this could get messy because in an SGF file with many variations, the tree quickly gets out of control, with diagonal lines running all over the place, making it difficult to trace the branches.


I'm not sure how horizontal lines would make it any easier?

ewan1971 wrote:
Oh, one more thing, fuzzy-stone-placement animation isn't available when replaying a game. I'd love for it to be made available in replay mode. Thanks.


I have experimented with fuzzy stone placement animations when navigating. The problem is performance. Navigating the game by holding down the 'down/up arrow key' will be very laggy, so I decided against it.

ewan1971 wrote:
An additional thought, I think it'd be better if the current/active variation is highlighted more prominently (with a different line color and/or thicker line width), and the inactive branches are more grayed out. This will also help reduce fatigue.


Currently, the nodes of the current variation is in white, while other variations are in gray. I can try making the lines of the current variation thicker...

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Post #99 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:40 pm 
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yishn wrote:
Actually, I find that quite unintuitive... Clearly, lines should connect the precedent move with the next move? Otherwise, if a game has only one variation, there wouldn't be any lines at all?
I tend to agree. For narrow paths, lines connecting the previous moves make sense.
yishn wrote:
ewan1971 wrote:
That's one way of looking at it conceptually, but visually this could get messy because in an SGF file with many variations, the tree quickly gets out of control, with diagonal lines running all over the place, making it difficult to trace the branches.


I'm not sure how horizontal lines would make it any easier?
Perhaps if all sibling moves are:

X
|
Y - Y1 - Y2 - Y3

that might be a little more legible than a bunch of diagonal lines that are hard to follow.

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 Post subject: Re: Sabaki SGF editor
Post #100 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:47 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
yishn wrote:
Actually, I find that quite unintuitive... Clearly, lines should connect the precedent move with the next move? Otherwise, if a game has only one variation, there wouldn't be any lines at all?
I tend to agree. For narrow paths, lines connecting the previous moves make sense.
yishn wrote:
ewan1971 wrote:
That's one way of looking at it conceptually, but visually this could get messy because in an SGF file with many sub-variations, the tree quickly gets out of control, with diagonal lines running all over the place, making it difficult to trace the branches.


I'm not sure how horizontal lines would make it any easier?
Perhaps if all sibling moves are:

X
|
Y - Y1 - Y2 - Y3

that might be a little more legible than a bunch of diagonal lines that are hard to follow.



Right, that's what I meant... It just looks neater this way, especially for a commented game with many variations, which themselves may have many variations. For me, things can quickly get messy visually.

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