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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #541 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:18 am 
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Obs:

I think Black has to abandon the middle stones. White to play makes the corner at best ko for life I think. This game is starting to look promising.


Team:

Please think very carefully about specific and fully read out sequences against both the corner and the central stones, and share the ideas here so you can discuss amongst yourselves. Learning exactly what we can get away with is vital. With a blunder, Black could be simply lost here, so knowing what opportunities we can grasp, and where the moves are to grasp them, could be vital.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #542 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:01 pm 
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@jedo
I think if we dont keep up the pressure on white and play your 55 this happens... aji @ (a) hurts us... now white controls the corner and almost entire left side...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 X 6 O . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | 8 3 7 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 2 B X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #543 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:07 pm 
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@Jordus:
:w2: in your diagram is not a problem.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Not enough liberties
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 4 C X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 2 B X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 5 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |[/go]

Wait a second...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Ummm...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X . O . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | X O . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 2 X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |[/go]

Yeah, OK. I think we're fine.

I also think we're OK with the clamp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Clamp
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 2 . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . B X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . a . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If there's a way we can add to the aji of our stranded outside stones in sente, I'd like to do that, though I'm not sure best how. A move on the top is big, but I think gote. Also, we have a reduction somewhere in the vicinity of a which can use that aji. Maybe a is too deep...

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #544 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Hold on, I think there might be a ko there still.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #545 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:40 pm 
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my biggest concern is that aji we are leaving... right now those two stones are so weak that they can be sealed into that middle moyo with little to no effort unless we build on them... of course it may just be my play style.. I don't like to play away from groups I am not always sure of..

Jedo's suggestion of playing elsewhere does give us some points... I guess the question is if playing elsewhere gains us enough points to be worth the possible sacrifice of the two stones and giving white that middle moyo...

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #546 Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:00 pm 
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Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We can play this in sente and we can also respond to either white atari in sente. I don't think it's aji keshi here because I think it increases the aji of these stones. May be a case of increasing the sacrifice. After white responds we can sacrifice these stones to do a ligher reduction of white's center area, or take some territory at the top.

We have a lot of bad aji in the corner group, but now that we're playing from behind, I think we have to take some risks.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #547 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:37 am 
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I have 2 of 3 suggestions. @Jordus: did I miss yours?
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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #548 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Sorry joaz thought i Said it again but was in a previous move discussion.... D13...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #549 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:17 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We are behind, and as Fwiffo noted, we have to take some risks. This preserves the D14 cutting stone in sente, and sets up some possibilities for reckless counterplay.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #550 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:37 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a c . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the sake of liberties, it looks like we need 'a', 'b', or 'c' to keep up pressure. 'a' was my first instinct, since it offers less forcing moves, but on second thought, I'm not scared of the forcing moves. Let's take 'c', so that we get more of a base and more points for every move. Both of our groups are still strong enough to attack, so it looks good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Maybe a followup like this?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . 0 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X 5 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #551 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Chew, I take that c is your suggestion? I second that, but to suggest something else, I will say a. (And if I misinterpreted, and you are not suggesting c, then I will)

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Online Redundant
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #552 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:45 pm 
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Chew:
One of your variations seems a little weak ... I think we can get a ko for the corner if black tenukis too much. I'm missing a bunch here, but it's impossible for there to not be something interesting in the corner.

This post by Redundant was liked by 2 people: Chew Terr, topazg
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #553 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Team+Obs:

Good, we smell the right amount of blood (thanks Red, I'd been really hoping we'd see that one). I love you all!!

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #554 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Red:
Ah, right. Yeah, I figured there was some kind of threat to make, but I hadn't read it yet because I figured it might be bigger to take points while threatening the C13 group, as I doubted they'd tenuki, even to the corner. But you're right, that might just be big enough to do right off.


Topazg:
Following my diagram, if black plays D12, you can trigger my suggestion at C11.


tj:
High five, same plan. Really, I just wanted to have something to say to each of you. How's your go been, lately?

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #555 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Black chat
If we want that group to survive we have to do something.... we can extend with a, maybe try b and create a wall to extend to, maybe play in the c area with hopes of connecting and destroying the moyo (c area might be better played after a...)... we could play d, if white responds with y then that sets up a group for us to run towards the other group... while surrounding the center white group at the same time... extending at (a) would probably be what I would play in a game... I dunno... these are all a few quick ideas off the top of my head...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . a . . . . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O x c x . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d z O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . y O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #556 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:01 am 
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I disagree with the last move. One space to the left would be sente against the corner (Red missed a variation where black has millions of internal ko threats. That ko is pretty much unwinnable)

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #557 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:28 am 
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Black chat
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . W . . . . f . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X W W . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . a . . . . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O e . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O x c x . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d z O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . y O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think just trying to run with the group would not go well. I think we need to find a creative way to sacrifice it. I'm adding points e and f to Jordus's diagram. We could play e in sente, but then it becomes harder to sacrifice. We could play f and leave the three stones for later. It would threaten to start an attack on the marked white stones with something like a, so white might have to clean up the aji immediately.

I'm currently leaning toward a move in the vicinity c, which is a pretty deep reduction of white's moyo that threatens to rescue our stranded stones.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #558 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:23 pm 
Tengen
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Kaya handle: Test
To observers
I like Fwiffos reasoning. I want the shoulder jhit near c.
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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #559 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:25 pm 
Gosei
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Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've decided I like this reduction move the best. It's less ambitious, but it makes it impossible for white to swallow us whole. White has so much influence that we could get in even more trouble if we went deep. At the same time, this works really well with our stones in the lower left, potentially building up a large area if white gets overly cautious about eating the three black stones inside.

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #560 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:12 pm 
Oza
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Question for black:
Looking at the board now, do you still think that letting your lower right corner get sealed off from the center would have been the end of the world?
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