Okay, but let's say that the Broadener family donates money both to endow a chaired professorship in Lifeboat Studies, and also to found a library to hold Barry Broadener's prized collection of early modern cookbooks; and they make both donations through Hartford University, with the caveat that either bequest goes back to the family if it is no longer being used for its intended purpose.

What happens when the President of the university goes down to Atlantic City and bets the entire endowment for the Broadener Professor of Lifeboat Studies on red? Can the President then auction off some of the famous cookbooks that were part of the other bequest to avoid running out of money for the first bequest? He could certainly try, and in some countries where mortmain is illegal he might succeed, but in the USA I think the Broadener family could successfully sue to prevent the sale and have the entire bequest returned to the family.

Even if both the Seattle and NY Go Centers are projects of the Kiin, Joaz, that doesn't mean that the board is equally free to spend money on either of them. You might think about the situation to firms that are nearing bankruptcy. Just because they have to make hard choices between responsibilities to bond holders, suppliers, pension funds, unions, and customers doesn't mean that the board is legally entitled to give the money to whomever they choose.

IANAL, btw. I just spend more time than I should thinking about mortmain.

This was partially due to the Kiin itself. They stubbornly refused to allow the building to be partially renovated in order to allow us to rent out the top floors; something that would have made the center more than self-sufficient.

My guess is that legally there's not much that the SGC can do, but I think the recent actions of the Kiin have been wrong and have directly gone against Iwamoto's wishes. The SGC was able to break even, so it was not a drain to the Kiin in any way. They claim that they want to route the funds to the NYGC, but these funds were never needed, the aforementioned renovation was not a very inexpensive investment and would have generated a profit. The Kiin has shown again and again that international spreading of go is not their priority, even if that means going against the wishes of someone who donated money specifically for that purpose.

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"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

As someone who played for years at both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center, I am sad to see them both suffer recently. I don't know legally who is on more solid ground, and I don't know the financial realities facing the Nihon-Kiin. Most of us at this point are just speculating from afar.

I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.

What are the average numbers of players per go playing day? How many days per week?

The SGC is a unique location in this country, it's taken years to build. Even if the economy improved and the center could later be reopened, it could take years for it to return to its same status.

I don't think it's selfish to fight for something like this.

And to be fair, US-Japan relations are less vital right now than US-Korea relations. Japan is no longer the only game in town.

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Let my comments be as eggs thrown on stones... explosive and hard to wash.

I played in NY more than a decade ago. Seattle was 2002-2004. So keeping in mind that my experiences are dated, Seattle seemed to have more regulars attending and more formal events, but I can't put a number on it. Both I believe were closed one day a week. NYGC had an entire townhouse in prime space of mid-town Manhattan and there seemed to be a larger contingent of Japanese players there than in Seattle. I enjoyed both.

And the rest. The US isn't the whole world. The NHK had reached out trying to promote Go all over the world. I don't sue my family and I don't sue my friends, unless I don't want them as friends anymore. The only people who gain from legal action are lawyers with your money. I doubt that Japanese people sue their friends either. It will make them think who their friends are, who they want to be involved with. That is no 'win' for anyone.

By the same token, friends don't evict friends from their homes. So while I understand your general attitude - that if you flatter the Nihon Kiin that their actions are always noble and just, perhaps they will remember your obeisance if they ever again feel the need to promote Go elsewhere in the world - I can also understand why the Seattle community does not see the Kiin's actions as the actions of a friend.

Just for clarity, the above statement by jts does not represent my view. Nearly the opposite represents my view. Shows the danger of believing you are summarizing someone's view. Considering I have been quite the opposite of silent on my views, it might be easier to let people read them and form their own opinion of my views.

I think jts is expanding on your metaphor with family and friends. The fact that you don't agree suggests that the metaphor is not an apt one.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. You will note that I didn't disagree with the part where he extended the metaphor actually. That part seemed quite well put and sensible. That's why I only quoted the part I disagreed with, the part that tried to put words into my mouth, wholly inaccurately.

Ah, sorry then. I've had a terrible time with reading on and off the board today

Oh do you?

I apologize if I misread your views. You said that the Kiin was trying to spread go not just in Seattle, not just in the US, but in the whole world, and that resisting their decision about Seattle would make them (I assume you mean, the Nihon Kiin) think about who their "real friends" are. I assumed that that implies the converse, as well - don't resist their decisions, no questions raised about friendship.

The sign says funded by, not donated by.

From what i have read so far i think the SGC should be ashamed of themselves. The Nihon ki-in provided what they could for as long as they felt that they could. Instead of being met with gratitude for what they had given in the past, it appears that they are now being hit with an irrational argument of self entitlement?

Kaoru Iwamoto i would think, would be proud that he was able to contribute to the growth of the game abroad while it was able to happen. However when the money runs dry, i do not think this means that his vision has failed. Nor do i think the SGC has any reason to complain. If someone lent me money, i wouldnt be suprised or angry when they want it returned and i certainly wouldnt feel entitled to it and try to sue them for leaving me with what i had to begin with.

The project has come to an end and perhaps the strategy could have been better for everyone if played differently. But this is the way it has to turned out, and like in our own games we have to accept the outcome.

My feelings exactly.

EVEN IF the SGC has legal grounds to sue, this is ridiculous.

Iwamoto Sensei and the Nihon Kiin supported Go in NY and Seattle (and other parts of the world)
for so many years. Now, everybody knows Go in Japan is on the decline and the Nihon Kiin is not
what it used to be. Instead of supporting and be thankful to the Nihon Kiin, the SGC is suing.
This is ridiculous.

The Chinese understand this. The Chinese Go Association is doing whatever they can
to support and help the Nihon Kiin, because they understand how people like Fujisawa Shuko Sensei
helped re-build Go in China in the 1980's.

Ed we're not talking about a service which survived on the Nihon Kiin's dime. As was stated earlier in the thread, we're talking about a service which was self-sufficient, and is now being sold out from under them. AND the reason being given, is to divert money to another venture, one which was less successful, and ultimately closed.

Honestly, the ones that the SGC owes for its continued existence are the SGC themselves. I support the SGC's position here entirely, and I don't believe that we owe so much to the Nihon Kiin that we should dismantle our infrastructure just to please a whim.

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Let my comments be as eggs thrown on stones... explosive and hard to wash.

When I was at the Seattle Go Center, on one day there were about a dozen, on another day two players.

Anecdotal evidence here... I'm operating from the previous statements that the center was self-sufficient, if that is NOT the case, I would be more than willing to adjust my position.

If the center IS self-sufficient, then seeing 12 people one day, and 2 people another is immaterial.

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Let my comments be as eggs thrown on stones... explosive and hard to wash.