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Do you want to become stronger? Why?
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14001		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Do you want to become stronger? Why?
I've realized in life that learning is easier with passion. If there's a goal or dream to aim for, it's easier to put in the effort to achieve it.

For me, in go, I wanted to be a dan player. I was stuck around 5k for awhile, but the dream of being 1d motivated me greatly... and then I no longer had a clear goal; I could aim for 5d, perhaps, but somehow it doesn't seem as motivating as becoming a dan player - as artificial as the distinction may be.

I can anticipate the responses to this thread explaining how ranks are superficial and arbitrary - that you should instead appreciate the beauty of go, or something like that. But there are many beautiful things in the world, and this doesn't equate to a goal, or to me, a reason to be diligent in study when it's tough to do so.

So what about you? Do you want to become stronger? Why? What motivates your pursuit?

For me, being a dan player was a concrete goal. But what do I aim for now?
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
It's not improving itself that matters to me, but I crave for those "A-ha!" moments which just happens to improve my Go. In the beginning, there were lots of these moments, so improvement was rapid, but over time it has decreased. Rank milestones mean little to me.
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
When I was a kyu player I wanted to be a dan player. Then I reached 1 dan and at the time the strongest player in the UK was 5 dan so I set that as a remote goal. Along the way I moved to the US and eventually reach 5 dan but, of course, that is weaker than 5 dan in UK. But it felt like an achievement anyway. All that time I was doing more studying than playing. Around that time, at age about 40, other things became more important to me and I slowly moved away from study - after all I had reached my goal and a higher one seems unnecessary. Now my goal it to remain a dan player for the rest of my life, but I am not studying for that.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
Thanks for the responses. I can relate to finding pleasure in an "'A-ha!' moment"; I suppose that's one of the fun aspects of playing go. Also, to DrStraw's point, I remember having a rival when I first started playing go, but I haven't had one in a long time. Maybe that can provide a source of motivation.

In fact, simply the act of studying and playing go are, indeed, somewhat enjoyable. Maybe this is somewhat related to the "'A-ha!' moment" that Solomon describes, and also somewhat related to the pleasure that can be obtained from exercising your brain and solving problems. In itself, I'm not sure that it provides me motivation to try to really excel, however.

Perhaps I can draw an analogy with getting physically stronger by lifting weights. Some people are really into it, and get pretty muscular. Weights are heavy, and difficult to lift. But I can get some pleasure from the exercise, and can feel good about the idea of "getting stronger". But once I reach a particular point where I "feel physically fit", gaining additional muscle is not as meaningful. It's true that I'm not the strongest person in the world, and many people can life more weights than me. I can admire people that are physically stronger than me, but to reach this level requires some dedication. I think it'd be easiest to achieve this dedication with a goal.

Coming back to go, perhaps it's just perception. Maybe in my mind, I've considered dan players to be the equivalent of "physically fit" in go. I admit that it's all due to the artificial line drawn between kyu and dan players, but without that artificial line, how can a level of physical fitness really be defined? From a different perspective, a 1d player is ridiculously unfit compared to a 9d player, a 5d player, or even a 3d player.

Reflecting, if I'm to ask myself if my level of go fitness is sufficient. I could ask myself if I'd like to become stronger than I am. I suppose my answer right now would be, "kind of". But without a concrete goal or rival, I can't say that being a little bit stronger than I am right now would be emotionally that different than what I presently feel.

Another question then becomes, should I seek a desire to be more physically fit than I am right now?

I can think of one reason that I should have this desire: passion. I like being passionate about something. It gives me purpose, and gives me drive.

But at this point, I'm brought back to the starting point of asking, "Where does this passion come from?"

Is this the model?
Code:
Passion --[leads-to]--> desire for improvement --[leads-to]--> passion


or perhaps it's this:
Code:
Passion ==[is-approximately-equal-to]== desire for improvement


Why should I have passion and/or desire for improvement? It makes me feel good to care about something.

Perhaps that's it. Being passionate about something fills a void in my life. Go is one medium through which I can experience passion. Therefore, go can fill a void in my life.

I suppose it's possible to be passionate about go, simply to be passionate about something.

That being said, a concrete goal or rival is something more visibly noticeable that can probably fuel the fire...
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
So I suppose I can have an answer for myself: I want to become stronger, because it gives me something to be passionate about in life. Being passionate about something in life makes life feel more enjoyable...

Something like that, I suppose.
Author:  LovelyLull [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
I want to become stronger. For me, playing and studying perfectly aligns with wanting to get better. I've never felt content with my rank, strength or understanding of the game.
Author:  bayu [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
When I had a rival, improvement came on its own. That was easy. Now I am pretty much on my own.

I prefer study goals to rank goals. At the moment mine are keeping this *@#°§* joseki app at 100% on easy and intermediate and review all games I lose on goquest. Doing daily 6 tsumego problems doesn't need a goal, it has become a habit. I don't get to play 19x19 at the moment, but I am looking forward to unleash my studying experience.

In the end, the social component is not to be underestimated. If you can never share your passion, it is difficult to have one.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
LovelyLull wrote:
I want to become stronger. For me, playing and studying perfectly aligns with wanting to get better. I've never felt content with my rank, strength or understanding of the game.


Thanks for the response. I'm still curious, based on your answer, if you have a reason why you want to become stronger. That is to say, why are you not content with your rank, strength or understanding of the game?
Author:  Fedya [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
If I post a game here, most of the people here could go through the game in five minutes and spot the key mistakes. I'd like to have that ability.

(I did reviews for the GTL and found it very challenging, albeit in a good way.)
Author:  daal [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
Kirby wrote:
So I suppose I can have an answer for myself: I want to become stronger, because it gives me something to be passionate about in life. Being passionate about something in life makes life feel more enjoyable...

Something like that, I suppose.

It sounds as if there are two things you would like - getting stronger and being passionate - and you are trying to find a way to use one to achieve the other. Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps, so to say. Seems as if it could work if one of the two gets rolling…
For me, I recently started wanting to get stronger because folks here on the board convinced me that it was possible. As a result, I changed some habits and started to get stronger. I like the feeling of beating players I previously thought I couldn't beat, but I can't say that I feel particularly passionate about it. I feel more passionate about learning Chinese, where I keep wanting and getting those ah-ha moments Solomon describes. I'm not sure why I feel more passion for one endeavor than the other, but I don't think I have much control over it. It seems I just crave some rewards more than others.
So I guess I agree that having passion for something is a good motor and makes life more interesting, but it isn't necessarily a condition for getting better.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
daal wrote:
So I guess I agree that having passion for something is a good motor and makes life more interesting, but it isn't necessarily a condition for getting better.


I agree with pretty much everything you say.

But if there is no passion, there isn't a real reason to get better at something, unless you have something else more concrete (e.g. if I get stronger, I can do and/or feel X). Maybe that's also what this thread is about.

For example, if you are not passionate about being better at go, why is it desirable? Or maybe you're mildly passionate, and it's mildly desirable?
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
I think you have to have passion about it to improve. You also have to have a certain dedication. Just wanting to get better is not enough beyond a certain point.
Author:  dhu163 [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
There are so many possible reasons for different people.

For me, maybe it started when several of the maths people around me were interested in combinatorics, and for years, I couldn't understand how it was interesting. Perhaps I felt a little pressure to. Later, I fell very depressed, and maybe just by chance, went along to the go club, having heard it mentioned once by a friend. I thought the game was much better than chess, with simple non-arbitrary humanistic rules (like maths). It became an addiction and procrastination tactic from my study. Soon I admired the logic and intuition part of the game, and went about trying to work out a system for where is best to play in the opening in general (like research) - corners vs centre, the attitude difference 3-4 vs 4-4, when pincer is good (it is when you are strong, what sort of strong?, or is it more for whether your pincer stone has lots of space? ...), cutting, etc (almost like trying to solve the opening). I loved it when I would find a pro commentary trying to explain a comparison of 2 moves using logic. And I could try to pick holes in any logic system I picked up, trying to make it increasingly rigorous. I valued the creativity and I could pretend what I was doing was useful. With lots of kgs playing, I was 4k in a year, gradually just enjoying learning and winning. Around this point I watched hikaru no go and that was a big motivator for a while, connecting go to emotional appetite, and I wondered and still do about becoming pro.

I often hated "wasting time" on go, and wanted to quit. But I've recently come to accept it as too big a part of myself. It has brought a lot of positive things - meeting lots of different people perhaps competitive, kind, rude, quiet, ..., 3 clubs in London, 4 in Cambridge, going out for dinner in Chinatown and so learning about food/restaurants/London, meeting Aja Huang. One person kept talking about how it was so good for training your brain. Another said they got both their jobs through go acquaintances. It has also helped me learnt Chinese massively through watching lectures/commentaries, and taught me more about the culture (I've long felt too clueless about that part of my background).

Alphago's emergence was a shock for a few weeks. Solving global parts of go seemed less interesting. I was also doubting whether I was improving anymore, perhaps I had to change my learning strategy to improve, start doing life and death?, did I care? Dwyrin, etc were no longer so educational, and it was a bit tough rising through the dans, pro games being too hard to understand, but anything else was too easy. Playing lots of games especially those where you are focused and invested, thinking, reading, planning, testing, trying to learn remained fundamental though.

After the recent London open, my urge to keep improving seems to have finally dropped. Perhaps my results were less than expected, perhaps I am tired. From here, it seems my main motivations are no longer to improve for its own sake, but aiming for the British title, or helping the UK team in the euro league, or teaching. Who knows what will happen in the future?

Looking back, I personally can't say much about why I wanted to get stronger except that it happened. But perhaps you can find some motivation thinking about what go has given you in the past and relating that to what you want in the future.
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
Dhu163, I find that very interesting because it is almost opposite to my experience. I started to play during my first year as a PhD student in mathematics. The appeal for me was that it was so different from my mathematical studies. Sure it required a logical mind, but it was the beauty and simplicity of it which attracted me, not the mathematical, logical side. I wanted a break from my daily research in mathematics and go provided a complete contrast to me while still utilizing my logical and calculating abilities.
Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
I want to become stronger. So far, being stronger has meant understanding more things, and seeing new things is interesting. On the other hand, I'm not sure whether I'm passionate. I've spent a lot of time on go over the years, but there have only been a few times when I was working hard.
Author:  Subotai [ Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
Crush my enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.
Author:  dust [ Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
I'm interested in people's passion for the game and how much it drives them.

I've met a couple of Chinese people over the years who have reached respectively pro-level and almost pro-level, and gave up playing because it was clear to them they weren't going to reach the top and it was time to find an alternative career.

I find it somewhat incredible you have have the motivation to reach such a high-level where Go becomes the major part of your life, and suddenly just stop playing.
Author:  Pio2001 [ Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
Hi,
I am currently struggling with the overwhelming desire of becoming stronger, that is opposed to the sensible principle that I should enjoy my strength as it is.

Reasons why I want to become stronger :
To be level with the majority of the players in my club. I am currently 12 kyu in the french federation, while most of the club's managers are SDK or dan.
Because I don't understand why I have been stuck at 6 kyu kgs for 10 months while studying 1 hour a day for all that period of time.
Because the gap between my kgs rank and my federation rank (6k / 12k), albeit not abnormal, is on the far side of the statistics.
Because there must be some wonderful secrets and enlightening moments to discover and experience in the high spheres of go strategy !

Reasons why I don't care about being stronger :
Because I can already properly run a complete game on a 19x19 board.
Because it is an endless quest and I will always be unsatisfied, whatever my level will be.
Because I don't want to cross the line where the ratio of painful hard work vs rewarding enjoyment inverts.
Because I already have a basic knowledge of all the fundamentals.
Because I am strong enough to teach beginners and review their games.
Because loosing a game doesn't mean that I am too weak, it's my opponent who's too strong !
Author:  gowan [ Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
I want to become stronger because the stronger I become the better I understand the game and the more I enjoy it.
Author:  joellercoaster [ Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you want to become stronger? Why?
gowan wrote:
I want to become stronger because the stronger I become the better I understand the game and the more I enjoy it.


This.

I keep having these moments, maybe every stone or two in strength, where I sense the vast iceberg past the tip I have so far grasped - a hint of its shape here, a bit of more precise geography there. These moments are definitely correlated with getting stronger.

Uncovering even a little more of it is deeply pleasurable. So I keep on.

I hope I can do this for the rest of my life.
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