Hi,

The following are some questions I have while I study some joseki patterns. It must be easy for advanced player, but somehow I cannot figure it out. Your help is very appreciated!

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[go]$$W One joseki variation
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . 6 5 1 0 a . 7 . . . . .
$$ - . . . X . 2 3 8 . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . 4 9 . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The recommended response for is for white to push up at , and this variation continues with . However, if is played at (a) instead, white seems to be split. How should white response?

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[go]$$B is supposed to be a bad move, but what will B5 plays elsewhere?
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . a 3 . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 5 X 2 O . X . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . X . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

In this Joseki variation, is supposed to be bad, and the suggested variation continues with as shown. However, what if is played inside at (a)? I am not sure of the best white response. One variation I've come up is that it will lead to a ko that is not bad for black:

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[go]$$B ko in corner
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - 0 1 X 2 4 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . O O X 3 5 . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 6 X O O . X . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . X . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Note that is necessary based on my reading, because it seems that if black can play there, one of the two white groups will be killed because of shortage of liberties.


Thank you!

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[go]$$Bc One joseki variation
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . X O O W B . O . . . . .
$$ - . . . X a X O B . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

My understanding is, that the black stones are very heavy and Black is in for a tough fight, especially with the cut at 'a'. Plus, White is happy to have the marked stone to connect the cut, it enables the cut at 'a'.

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[go]$$Bc at 'a', at 'b'
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 1 X 2 5 6 . . . . . . . . .
$$ - a O O X 3 4 . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 9 X O O b X . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 0 8 . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . X . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Take the outside. White is good here, I think.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

SoDesuNe, there's an argument to be had over whether white should push at a before connecting, because if you do it afterwards a sensible black player will extend rather than block.

Also in the second diagram black can cut at b instead of answering at 9. Below is a simpler way (next a or b or tenuki).

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[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 1 X 3 a . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - 7 O O X 2 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 5 X O O . X . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . X b O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

These things are so clear when explained and yet in games I'd just connect without thinking (granted that push not necessary worth depending on situation, but it wouldn't even cross my mind).

The only example in may database. Clearly this depends on the surrounding position. Note that the original clamp (marked stone) is extremely rare if the gap at 'a' has not been protected already (as in the OP). We had better not call it joseki.

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[go]$$Bc Seo Pong-su (white) - Yi Se-tol; 34th Wangwi League 2000-07-03
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . 6 7 8 . . O . . . X O X O O X X O . |
$$ | . 5 O O . . . . . X . X O . O X . O . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . X X O . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X 4 . . . X . X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . 9 O W 2 3 . . O O . O X . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . O O X X O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . X . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X O . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X O . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O X . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21