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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #61 Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:29 pm 
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dmpeyton wrote:
Unfortunately for me, there's not much leftover for long-term strategy (at least at this point).


Maybe you could play some 9x9 games first. As Pio mentioned, these are mainly focused on fighting, allowing you to focus on learning one of the above-mentioned aspects mentioned at a time. Once the fighting part starts to feel more natural/intuitive, return to 19x19 and to try add in some whole-board strategy. :)

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Post #62 Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 1:19 pm 
Oza
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Aernout wrote:

Lastly, something about Online Go Anxiety for the general public:
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Make it your goal to lose. Before you start playing, say to yourself: "This evening, I am going to lose 2 games." And then you play, giving it everything you have to win every game. And you keep playing until you have lost twice.

(It normalizes losing as an expected and OK result. I think I picked it up from my time of playing Starcraft 2 online, where it's called "ladder anxiety". Only know I realize how much I have learned about general self-improvement during my Starcraft 2 time. Thanks Day[9]!)


I just wanted to thank you for sharing this. I personally don't suffer from OGA, but I do suffer when I lose too much, and since I've started following this advice and setting a two loss limit, I haven't had any days where I've gone on tilt or felt that I was utterly incompetent at the game. The worst that can happen is I go 0-2, which is not great, but it's also not terrible, and the next day I can start fresh. Works for me :)

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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #63 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:28 pm 
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Hi everyone! Getting somewhat better. I'm going to post a game that I actually won. (Gasp!) I find it more useful to try to find a move that I know is NOT BAD and also accomplishes something (perhaps two things at once), rather than searching in vain for "the best move." Besides, if there is always just one best move, then we should all just play like computers. Every game would be the same and black would always win. That was a big deal for me when I changed my perspective. I'm just not good enough yet to find "the best move," but I am proud if I can find one that is not bad.

Also, I know that snaking stones into someone's area is not a technique that the pros use, but for us crappy kyu players it is pretty important. Invasions are awfully nerve wracking. Reduction is much more comfortable.

Of course I am still terrible at the end game because I have no idea where to play! The clock is running, so I can't think too long. I just try to make sure that I am not self-destructing huge groups.

I am definitely interested if I missed any HUGE opportunities in this game. It seemed to me like my opening was horrible, but I fought my way out of the hole.

I still have online go anxiety, but it's getting better. Please don't badger me about learning joseki. I'll learn them eventually.



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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #64 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:45 pm 
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You played much better than your opponent and deserved to win. Good job! Finding a play like the snapback at 154 is satisfying, isn't it. :-)

High level players don't snake into territory, not because it isn't a good idea, but because their opponents see the threat of it happening and prevent it before it occurs. There is nothing wrong with doing it when you have the chance! A lot of go is like that: you won't see certain types of moves show up very often as you get better because the threat of them is enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #65 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:20 pm 
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dmpeyton wrote:
Hi everyone! Getting somewhat better. I'm going to post a game that I actually won. (Gasp!)

(snip)

Of course I am still terrible at the end game because I have no idea where to play! The clock is running, so I can't think too long. I just try to make sure that I am not self-destructing huge groups.

I am definitely interested if I missed any HUGE opportunities in this game. It seemed to me like my opening was horrible, but I fought my way out of the hole.


Hi there!

Go anxiety can probably be for many reasons but when you're a beginner it can be simply because the move possibilities are nearly endless -- it's daunting. Of course some people want to improve their rank fast and get anxious because they're worried they wont. They put pressure on themselves. If you can find enjoyment in playing or on losses being experience (a different perspective) you may find the anxiety goes away.

Often there are many 'correct' moves. Often the best move is simply the one that's not bad.

I've mainly being improving by studying my mistakes. It also makes losing less painful. :)

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Post #66 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:55 pm 
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Hi Peyton,

:b23: P4 is the local, shared vital point.
Both B and W want it first. B should get it first.

:w26: P4. The exchange ( :b23: , :w24: , :b25: ) is a mistake for B.
It's good for W and bad for B. B missed the vital point P4 --
you are happy to take it.

:b27: B gets it back.

:w48: First exchange P14 atari - Q15 connect.

:b49: Terrible. Please see Toothpaste .

:w50: P13 directly. Please see Toothpaste .
In some situations ( certain shapes ), your :w50: atari may be ignored by your opponent -- he may take P13 himself.
So, just P13 directly.

:w52: If you connect now, then you've wasted your :w50: atari.
The point of your :w50: is to follow up with a tiger's mouth --
o13 or P12. Otherwise, just P13 directly on :w50: .

:w56: If you reply here, the sequence is first hane at T11.
Then, if B hane-ataris you, then you connect here,
with a follow-up if B doesn't fix his cut.

:w66: Did you realize your top right group is not alive ?
If B hanes at S19, your group is dead shape, locally.
To live, you need S19 for your second eye.

:w70: Wrong shape. You get cut off.

:b73: You already have a cut at N8.

:b81: Cut at N8.

:w84: B gave you so many chances to fix N8.
Both of you didn't notice N8, or that S19 is vital to your top right group.

:w92: By now you have miai of N13 and S19 to live.
Fix your N8 cut.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #67 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:08 am 
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dmpeyton wrote:
I am definitely interested if I missed any HUGE opportunities in this game.


:w56: is just slow. At this stage of the game there are important things to do.

(1) Black has weakish groups: on the left side and the lower side. That means a decisive separation in the area of H6 sets up good things for you.

(2) On the top side, there are weaknesses at H17 and L17 for Black. In combination they mean you should look to invade here.

Therefore, playing now at P12 to strengthen that weak group of yours looks more interesting. It creates a weakness to aim at, at R11. Black can hardly just ignore it. If Black plays at T12 you make ko at T13. There are threats in the upper right corner, and Black has to be very careful.

In short, an outward-facing stone here beats one on the first line.

Second comment is tactical rather than strategic, but revolves around the same weakness at R11. At 116 you needed to play atari at K9, before connecting at N8. A veiled threat, which you should be able to figure out.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #68 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:47 am 
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Hi Ed,

Thanks for the review! Thanks especially for pointing out that cut at N8. That is something that I think I should be able to see and fix. As for missing a vital point...of course we did! We are newbs man, so we have no idea what we're doing. At :w66: I did realize that my group was not alive, but it was also not completely sealed in yet. However, I see that you are right. Better to secure life with a single move than have to worry about it later.
Quote:
:w70: Wrong shape. You get cut off.
I don't know what you are talking about.

Thanks again!

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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #69 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:55 am 
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Thanks for the comments Charles!
Quote:
(1) Black has weakish groups: on the left side and the lower side. That means a decisive separation in the area of H6 sets up good things for you.

This is very interesting. I see exactly what you mean. If I can split my opponent into two weak groups, that is great for me.
Quote:
(2) On the top side, there are weaknesses at H17 and L17 for Black. In combination they mean you should look to invade here.

Invading is scary. Do the two weaknesses make it more likely that I can get out to the middle if I need to?

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Post #70 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:25 pm 
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dmpeyton wrote:
Thanks especially for pointing out that cut at N8.
Hi peyton,

This is because of :w70: . On :b73:, B could cut you at N8.

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Post #71 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:34 pm 
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This is an interesting aspect of the game of go. For most of our go players, no matter how strong you are, there is always someone who can beat you UNCONDITIONALLY. So the first thing you need to learn is to deal with loses.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #72 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:55 am 
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dmpeyton wrote:
Quote:
(2) On the top side, there are weaknesses at H17 and L17 for Black. In combination they mean you should look to invade here.

Invading is scary. Do the two weaknesses make it more likely that I can get out to the middle if I need to?


In terms of a concrete variation: if you invade right now at J17, you don't necessarily die. Because whichever side Black blocks, you can get quite a way on the other side. There is about enough room for a comb formation (http://senseis.xmp.net/?CombFormation) if Black blocks on the right.

More strategic thinking sees Black's play at J16 as slightly misplaced, from the outset. There is a key point at H17. There is also a key point around L17. So plays that "link" them by intervening somewhere between can gain in efficiency. A kind of "consolidation of potential". This circle of ideas is useful at a heuristic level, before you get to reading anything out.

In either case, the idea would be that getting a little more strength in the centre could set up a convincing invasion, without damaging the weak group on the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #73 Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:21 pm 
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Yep, definitely time to quit! Also, yes, I am an idiot. No need to ask.


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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #74 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:57 am 
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So, you outplayed your opponent, killed several groups but then, you "forgot" to actually remove one of these groups from the board when it became necessary. It happened to me, too, several times, and I know that this feels very annoying. However, it's at least one stage further to outplay the opponent and then lose via a stupid blunder compared to getting outplayed yourself without having any clue what is going on. With increasing number of games you will get more experienced and such kind of blunders will get more unlikely to happen. It is also quite certain that there will be games, where your opponent commits such blunder, and you get your revanche. At the end, it's just a game... ;-)

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Post #75 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:07 am 
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Hi peyton,

:w12: Misread ? Losing the two stones ( :w2: , :w8: ) is too much.
Connect at E3.

:b13: Cut at C3 directly.

:b17: C2 ( if D2, ko ).

:w18: B may not reply, so you get gote. Example: B could tenuki to approach D15.

:w20: Slow. Both B and W are settled here. Tenuki.

:b21: Slow & bad shape.

:w24: No. Since B got "tricked" by your moves ( :w18:, :w20: ),
you are happy to continue to extend, at least one more, to D8, which also fixes the cut at E6.
D8 is the local shared vital point.

:b25: B gets it first. But globally, probably slow.

:w26: Tenuki is good.

:b27: Not small, but globally, probably slow.

:w28: Slow. Also, bad exchange for W ( B extends to G8 ) -- you push from behind.

:b29: G8.

:w66: Bad Life-and-Death. This is a pass. B is already dead at :b65: .

:w68: Bad Life-and-Death. This is a pass.

:w74: Bad Life-and-Death. Inefficient. Make your 2nd eye at B19; just live; no need to capture B.

:w76: Pass. B has only 2 liberties left.

:black: 137 Your comment to your opponent:
Quote:
dmpeyton 17k+: 60 You should have lost this game
Very bad form, on your part.
Nobody forced you to make your bad moves; you played every move ( good, neutral, or bad ) on your own free will.
You lost your game, fair and square. Own up to it.
Thank your opponent for opening your eyes to your own mistakes. And move on.


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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #76 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:15 am 
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:w34: needs to come in between the K4 and Q4 stones, to help the strong group you have (to the left) start to operate in your favour.

The way to improve, as far as I'm concerned, is to get one thing out of each game you lose. So I offer this, rather than detailed commentary.

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Post #77 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:39 pm 
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Hi there I just wanted to register so I could confess that Go is hard too hard for me. I've destroyed a laptop and a tablet in fits of pique after losing groups or games. I don't think I have the right temperament for this game. I'm angry and sad and I think I will just stop playing. >_<

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Post #78 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:51 pm 
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ihatego wrote:
Hi there I just wanted to register so I could confess that Go is hard too hard for me. I've destroyed a laptop and a tablet in fits of pique after losing groups or games. I don't think I have the right temperament for this game. I'm angry and sad and I think I will just stop playing. >_<


Certainly understandable. I think we've all been there. Life is short, so if it's not for you, then you should quit.

But before you go, remember that things that bring extreme frustration can often bring extreme satisfaction once you've broken through.

Good luck!

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Post #79 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:09 am 
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ihatego wrote:
Hi there I just wanted to register so I could confess that Go is hard too hard for me.


Nonsense :) I've been playing for only a bit over a year now, maybe 1.5 years. Don't know exactly. I started out with playing against GNU Go on my tablet, and got smashed into the ground in the beginning. I switched to the program "Go" from AI Factory, which used the Aya engine. Much weaker than GNU Go, but I still got smashed. So, I started taking a four or five stone handicap (and no komi) against Go/Aya level 1.

From there, I started to work my way up, reducing the handicap, and moving to level 2 when I was able to beat Go/Aya 8 times out of ten when GIVING it 2 stones of handicap.

So I moved through Aya's 10 levels, and then started again on GNU Go level 1, which is stronger than Go/Aya on level 10+2 stones. I did the same there, and I recently made such a big jump in strength that I became strong enough to now regularly beat GNU Go at level 10 in an even game (>= 50% win rate). Sometimes I even get it to resign.

So, now I'm *giving* it one or two stones, and start to play stronger engines, again *taking* a handicap.

Try to find several different engines, so as to avoid to 'abuse' an engine, winning by abusing its weaknesses, rather than by becoming stronger yourself. I you improve one stone against one engine, you should have improved one stone against ALL the engines. So for example, if you play at 3 stones against Aya, and 6 stones against GNU Go, and you improve one stone against Aya so you can now play at 2 stones, you SHOULD be able to play against GNU Go by taking 5 stones. You don't need to use a lot of different programs; you can also register at KGS, where you can start playing engines as low as 20k, taking a handicap if necessary.

Quote:
I've destroyed a laptop and a tablet in fits of pique after losing groups or games. I don't think I have the right temperament for this game. I'm angry and sad and I think I will just stop playing. >_<


While I never have destroyed hardware, I do know what you mean by the angry and sad thing. I have had good games that I lost by just overlooking an atari on a big group, or by misjudging a sequence and losing a capturing race by one liberty.

That does create the "RAAAAAARGGGGGHH, I'll NEVER PLAY THIS GAME AGAIN!!!!" moments.

Of course, people don't want to lose all the time. Even if you are improving, it can be many weeks or months until you are strong enough to win your first game on even. In the beginning, I refused to take handicap stones. I felt too good for it. But then I realized: if I don't, I can't see my own improvement.

Thus, I found the weakest engine (Go/Aya, at that time, on the tablet), set it to the lowest level, and took 4 or 5 stones handicap.

Suddenly, it was a mere days before I won my first game by 1.5 points or so. And then by 6.5 points. And then 10.5. Obviously I also lost some. And so on and on, until I started winning games one after another by 20+ points. Thus, I reduced the handicap by one stone. Thus, I started losing more, and winning with less margin again, but I could SEE a one stone improvement.

===

Note: my version of Go/Aya on Android has recently been upgraded and it's now called Go+. It now contains a MUCH stronger, multithreaded engine. I haven't played a full game yet, as it takes too long to move on my old tablet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's now stronger than GNU Go on the same tablet.

The description says this:

Quote:
This new version has been 3 years in preparation and improves the top play strength by 10 grades from 8 kyu to 3 dan. This is based on the new Aya program, which was the winner of the KGS World Computer Go Championship November 2014 and EGC Computer Go Tournament 2015.


8 kyu on level 10 for the old Aya is a bit optimistic. As GoDroid (GNU Go) plays between 5-8 kyu, and is measurably stronger at level 1 than Aya at level 10+2 stones, I would put the old Aya at level 10 at 12 kyu or so. However, it does seem that AI Factory has switched over to the new Monte Carlo version of the Aya engine, which brings it more in line with something like Pachi or Fuego. This would make a VERY strong program, even on a tablet, and it wouldn't be advised to start out with this anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Frustrated
Post #80 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:24 pm 
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Hello, I would recommend you start your workout with a simple software as Igowin (9x9), this will get stronger as you also do, and you could be watching your progress easily, something like 10 games every day

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