Life In 19x19 :: prisoners?

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Author:	hejackedbonsai [ Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:41 am ]
Post subject:	prisoners?
Dear community, in following two pictures a game situation is shown. https://goo.gl/photos/8P1Mp8DHYigsD1nT7 We've removed prisoned stones; was this correct. https://goo.gl/photos/1ZApqCKS5iVuV627A Thanks a million for advice and explanation.

Author:	dfan [ Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: prisoners?
The game is not remotely close to finished. For one thing, the entire area in the middle of the board is surrounded by Black stones on one side and White stones on the other. To be painfully honest, asking whether the prisoners in this position have been identified correctly is sort of like asking "Is the sentence 'Farfle grang bi burbim' grammatically correct?" Despite the apparent simplicity of the rules, go is pretty hard to learn from scratch. I recommend that you 1) start by playing on a 9x9 board instead of 19x19, and 2) either find a live human to help you with the rules or play a bunch of games against a computer, just to learn how the rules work.

Author:	sybob [ Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: prisoners?
Hello hejackedbonsai, This post, but also your other post, seem to suggest that you need some more clarification. Try to find a more experienced player, in person or online. Prisoners are taken from the board during a game if and at the moment when a stone or chain of stones do not have any liberty anymore. Not earlier. All liberties of a stone or chain of stones should be occupied by the opponent before he is allowed to take stone(s) off the board. At the end of the game, dead stones are taken off the board. See also your other post and comments. Stones are dead if they, as a group, do not have at least two eyes. The concepts of liberties and eyes, and the difference between those two concepts, seem to be not yet clear for you. Stones which are dead at the end of a game may also be called prisoners, but they are not prisoners like from lack of liberties, but by lack of eyes. Stones which can be considered during the game as dead, because they have not at least two eyes and also will be unable (with best opponent play) to make two eyes later on in the game, may be called prisoners for convenience sake, but are not removed and stay on the board, until they have no liberties anymore and/or are actually dead at the (absolute) end of the game.

Author:	Bonobo [ Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: prisoners?
I strongly recommend visiting The Interactive Way To Go and finishing the course which, IMHO, should be a required course for all Go beginners. Many of your questions will be answered once you finished it, even some that you haven't yet asked

Author:	EdLee [ Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:45 am ]
Post subject:
sybob wrote: Stones are dead if they, as a group, do not have at least two eyes. No; missing info includes seki, the distinguish between real and false eyes, and ko. It's very difficult (probably impossible) to try to teach a beginner Go well in a few paragraphs. Many have tried, unsuccessfully. Mr. Cho's Go: A Complete Introduction to the Game is a book. Bonobo's suggestion to complete The Interactive Way To Go is a good direction.

Author:	sybob [ Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: No; missing info includes seki, the distinguish between real and false eyes, and ko. Of course, you are totally correct. Because of OP's questions, I did not want to complicate it too much for him and took a short cut. Still, I hope my reply, and the other replies, were helpful to OP, for starters. If not, the other suggestions may be of help.

Author: Bill Spight [ Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:04 pm ]

Post subject: Re: prisoners?

hejackedbonsai wrote:

Dear community,

in following two pictures a game situation is shown.

https://goo.gl/photos/8P1Mp8DHYigsD1nT7

We've removed prisoned stones; was this correct.

https://goo.gl/photos/1ZApqCKS5iVuV627A

Thanks a million for advice and explanation.

A stone or group of connected stones is captured when it is smothered, i.e., when each of its adjacent points is occupied by an enemy stone. (With one exception, to be explained below.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Board position (illegal) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . O | $$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . . , X X O X . , . . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . X O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X W X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The above board position is illegal, because the :wc:

stone is captured. It should be removed from the board, to produce the following legal position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Legal position $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . O | $$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . . , X X O X . , . . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . X O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How is it captured?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black captures the marked stone $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . O | $$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . . , X X O X . , . . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . X O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 W X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One way is that Black plays :b1:

and captures :wc:

. Before the end of her play, Black removes the :wc:

stone from the board, leaving the legal position above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Illegal suicide $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . O | $$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . . , X X O X . , . . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . X O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X 1 X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If White plays :w1:

, it would be captured. White is not allowed to play this suicide.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Exception $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . O | $$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . . , X X O X . , . . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . X O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O B W X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X W W X . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is another illegal position. Neither the :bc:

stone nor the :wc:

stones may remain on the board at the same time. What happens depends upon whose turn it is, that is, upon who has just played a stone. If it is White, then White removes the Black stone, leaving the following legal position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ White has captured one Black stone $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . O | $$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . . , X X O X . , . . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . X O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If it is Black's turn, she removes the White stones to leave this legal position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Black has captured three White stones $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . O | $$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . . , X X O X . , . . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . , . . . . X O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

¿Está claro?

Author: Bill Spight [ Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:21 am ]

Post subject: Re: prisoners?

You may enjoy playing the Capture Game, in which the object is to capture one or more stones. It offers a good introduction to regular go.

The rules are the same as regular go, but passes are not allowed. You win the game if you capture a stone or if your opponent has no legal play.

Here are a few example games on the 3x3 board, to give you some idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ - - - $$ | . 4 3 | $$ | . 1 2 | $$ | . . . | $$ - - -[/go]

threatens to capture :w2:

but White captures first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ - - - $$ | 7 4 6 | $$ | . 1 2 | $$ | . 3 5 | $$ - - -[/go]

is better in this game. :b5:

threatens to capture :w2:

connects the White stones, but to no avail.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ - - - $$ | 7 4 6 | $$ | 5 1 2 | $$ | . 3 . | $$ - - -[/go]

White has no legal move for :w8:

, and loses.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ - - - $$ | 5 3 7 | $$ | 8 2 1 | $$ | 4 6 9 | $$ - - -[/go]

This game takes longer, but Black still wins.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ - - - $$ | 7 4 6 | $$ | 1 2 3 | $$ | . 5 . | $$ - - -[/go]

leads to a quicker win.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ - - - $$ | 5 3 1 | $$ | 6 4 2 | $$ | . . . | $$ - - -[/go]

loses.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ - - - $$ | 6 5 1 | $$ | 3 2 4 | $$ | . . . | $$ - - -[/go]

is another way to win.

People usually start playing the Capture Game on the 6x6 board, and then move on the the 8x8 and 9x9. You can learn a lot from the Capture Game, both tactically and strategically. (The Capture Game is actually more strategical than regular go.

)

After the Capture Game you can move on to Capture Two, in which the winner must capture two or more stones, or leave the opponent with no play. After that you can move on to Capture Four. Then when you move on to regular go it will make a lot more sense, and you can apply the lessons of the Capture Games to it. BTW, you can also allow a player to hand over a stone instead of playing on the board. That stone counts as a captured stone. This refinement makes Capture Two or Capture Four or Capture Seven more like regular go.

Good luck!

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