It is currently Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:40 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #1 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:00 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 18
Was liked: 1
Rank: 14 Kyu OGS
Universal go server handle: TofuPython
What rank, subjectively, of course, do you consider breaking out of the "beginner" status?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #2 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:15 am 
Oza

Posts: 3887
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 134
Was liked: 1894
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
About 20 kyu. Some people say things like a dan player is still a beginner (shodan can be translayed as "first step") or even a pro*, because there are still so many things they don't know/understand, but frankly I find such statements a load of false-modest/self-deprecating nonsense.

* iirc Fujisawa Shuko (9p, Honorary Kisei) said something like he only knows 10% of Go, and then later revised that number down. Whilst that might be true (and maybe AlphaGo can help us now) that doesn't make him a beginner (I don't know if he ever expressed that sentiment).


Last edited by Uberdude on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: jmuriel, TofuPython
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:15 am 
Oza

Posts: 2181
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 236
Was liked: 658
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
8 dan? :lol:

Seriously, we are all beginners at some level. But I would say you are no longer a beginner when you can give a completely new player (say 10 games or fewer) a 9 stone handicap and win. Maybe around 15-20 kyu.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).


This post by DrStraw was liked by: TofuPython
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:01 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 111
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 29
Rank: ogs 6 kyu
OGS: Wulfenia
TofuPython wrote:
What rank, subjectively, of course, do you consider breaking out of the "beginner" status?


I felt that I was not a beginner anymore the first time I played a 19x19-game and all of my groups survived.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:18 am 
Judan

Posts: 7242
Liked others: 1320
Was liked: 1101
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
When you know how to properly finish and score the game? :-)

_________________
Discipline is remembering what you want. -David Campbell

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:33 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1169
Liked others: 222
Was liked: 312
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
I agree with Kirby, but I would say that a person is not a beginner when he/she can play complete games and score them without having to consult rules. I would not pooh-pooh the idea that we are all beginners in some serious sense. As a more quantified measure, how about saying one is not a beginner when one can win with a nine stone handi against a pro?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #7 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:25 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2458
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
gowan wrote:
I agree with Kirby, but I would say that a person is not a beginner when he/she can play complete games and score them without having to consult rules. I would not pooh-pooh the idea that we are all beginners in some serious sense. As a more quantified measure, how about saying one is not a beginner when one can win with a nine stone handi against a pro?


That's getting pretty close to shodan there, which I think we can agree is not really considered anywhere close to a beginner, at least in the west.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #8 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:42 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 120
Liked others: 10
Was liked: 27
When the regulars at the club remember your name.

Or when you happen to explain something to a beginner. At the latest when you happen to play a handycap game with white.

Also, when you post here, you can check right under your name whether you are a beginner or not ;)

_________________
If something sank it might be a treasure. And 2kyu advice is not necessarily Dan repertoire..


This post by bayu was liked by: schawipp
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #9 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:58 pm 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 50
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 16
I guess I'm not a beginner anymore,
came very close to winning against a 10kyu+ with 9 stone handicap if it weren't for one bad move (plus we were using a clock and I was in time trouble 45 minutes, then 25 moves in 10 minutes, Canadian byo-yomi). I was dominating the game in the beginning and into the middle a bit but towards the late middle/ end with time trouble I had to make fast moves and blundered and lost a large group on the bottom, along with significant territory in a ko where I ignored a ko threat and would have lost only one stone. I still had time to save the large group after ignoring the ko threat, but on white's next move after the first ko threat, he killed my large group and I didn't even see it (that has happened in a couple games I played where I didn't see the bigger picture of a large group of mine about to die). If I had time to think I could have won the game I think (score was 30.5 white). I play very slowly as I do in chess. (The game did take about 2 hours)

Also, I have been teaching the game to my family and friends, and will be playing white in a 4 stone handicap game against my cousin this Saturday, who has only played 3 games but started learning at the same time I did ( I taught him). I am pretty sure I have played over 20 games so far as well as having read the 1st 2 books of Janice Kim, " Learn to Play Go," and making my way into the 3rd volume as well as "Go for Beginners" by Kaoru Iwamoto. I have been doing Go problems on SmartGo on my ipad whenever I get the chance. I have also watched some professional games both live (2 Meijin games and an Oza game) and on SmartGo (looking over some Shusaku games).

Once a week I have been attending the Empty Sky Go Club here in Rochester NY at RIT, and they have been teaching me there as well as playing games there.

I have been playing for about a month, and based on my last game described above, my friend thinks I might be around 20kyu.

Edit:
Then again maybe you are a beginner until you get your first 100 games in like people have been telling me to do...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #10 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:16 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 17
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 8
Rank: 8kyuu
IGS: 8k
I wonder if it is rank based at all. If you play 10000 games over the course of 100 years but can't get passed 10 kyuu, are you still a beginner? Or conversely, someone on their first day that doesn't know what a kou is but plays 8 dan moves...


This post by Ulquiorra was liked by: Anzu
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #11 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:42 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1701
Liked others: 661
Was liked: 280
Rank: 1 kyu
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
In my mind the word "beginner" is a perfectly ordinary English word. When you begin something, you are a beginner. Easy.

Most words don't have specific cutoffs for inclusion. You can happily understand "I'm hungry" or "green shirt" without needing an exact barrier between hungry and not hungry, or green and blue. If I see "a beginner's guide to Go" I interpret it the same as I would "a beginner's guide to photography", and I don't feel like I'm missing any nuance of meaning.

I feel like I have seen many long threads on this forum trying pin exact parameters on words like "weak group" or "fundamentals" or "wall" or "reading". I don't predict success.


This post by emeraldemon was liked by: dust
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #12 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:56 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 111
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 29
Rank: ogs 6 kyu
OGS: Wulfenia
emeraldemon wrote:
I don't predict success.


Can you explain what you mean with "success"?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #13 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:27 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7344
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 267
Was liked: 1646
GD Posts: 312
He refers to continuum vs. discrete.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #14 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:55 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1701
Liked others: 661
Was liked: 280
Rank: 1 kyu
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
Success at finding the end of beginner.

By the way TofuPython, you are no longer a beginner. You have graduated to Double-digit kyu (ddk) player :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #15 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:24 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 394
Liked others: 27
Was liked: 116
GD Posts: 10
Kirby wrote:
When you know how to properly finish and score the game? :-)

Get this idea and extend to my version of 'not a beginner' definition: Those who know and follow all go rules perfectly to the point that they can be a judge in tournament match.

Win/Loss result really doesn't matter as long as you nailed all rules right, you're not a beginner anymore.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #16 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:31 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1309
Location: Finland
Liked others: 41
Was liked: 116
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
pookpooi wrote:
'not a beginner' definition: Those who know and follow all go rules perfectly to the point that they can be a judge in tournament match.

I'd say that in most games and sports, go included, this definition means that a wast majority of players will always be beginners.

I consider myself as "not a beginner" in e.g. go, golf, poker and bridge, but I most definitely couldn't act as a referee in a (serious) tournament in any of them.

_________________
Signature space for rent

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #17 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:54 pm 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 50
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 16
I read somewhere that some kinds of territory scoring in rare cases can be very difficult to determine and they actually call in a tribunal of professionals to judge the final score...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #18 Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:25 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 111
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 29
Rank: ogs 6 kyu
OGS: Wulfenia
emeraldemon wrote:
Success at finding the end of beginner.


The question was a joke. Someone must have realized that, right?


This post by Gotraskhalana was liked by: globulon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #19 Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:40 am 
Oza

Posts: 2181
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 236
Was liked: 658
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
emeraldemon wrote:
By the way TofuPython, you are no longer a beginner. You have graduated to Double-digit kyu (ddk) player :)


Graduated from triple-digit or single-digit?

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: When are you not a "beginner"?
Post #20 Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:56 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1701
Liked others: 661
Was liked: 280
Rank: 1 kyu
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
Gotraskhalana wrote:
emeraldemon wrote:
Success at finding the end of beginner.


The question was a joke. Someone must have realized that, right?


I thought about it, but if you were serious and I was just confusing I didn't want to blow off your question, especially since some members don't speak english natively....

Communication is fraught with peril.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group