I lost this game playing white after I let black escape. What would you have done differently?
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| A sad escape. http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11900 |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sun May 31, 2015 11:21 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | A sad escape. | ||
I lost this game playing white after I let black escape. What would you have done differently?
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun May 31, 2015 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Joel, Quote: What would you have done differently? Study your shapes. Improve your understanding of shapes.Example:  You're not looking at your shape problems:Your  keima can be cut.B can try to connect underneath to  with E18. This is too much -- this shape can be cut,but you don't cut it and only submissively back up. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Sun May 31, 2015 11:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Black was never really in any trouble of dying. At any point after  he could connect by playing E18.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun May 31, 2015 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Three quick comments. First, White resigned too early. Yes, Black is ahead, but the game is young and the opponent is weak. White certainly has chances. It is important to learn how to come from behind. DDKs should hardly ever resign. Second, White's main error in the opening was the failure to attack. Mainly, a failure to attack Black in the bottom right, but also a failure to attack in the top left. Yes, White eventually attacked the Black group in the top left, but the attack came too late. Black, however, allowed himself to get bamboozled into passive play. Third, White made some single purpose plays. Usually you cannot afford such plays until late in the game. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Sun May 31, 2015 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
DJLLAP wrote: Black was never really in any trouble of dying. At any point after he could connect by playing E18.To follow up on this, the problem is assuming that you attack to kill. Most of the things you should attack are not killable with decent play. You need to get something else out of the attack besides playing forcing moves for the sake of forcing. |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sun May 31, 2015 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
So would it be correct to say that whenever you attack stone, you should plan for it to live? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun May 31, 2015 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Some comments. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun May 31, 2015 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: So would it be correct to say that whenever you attack stone, you should plan for it to live? No. You should start out attacking to kill. Often you will not, but if you don't learn to kill, you won't learn to attack. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sun May 31, 2015 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
skydyr wrote: DJLLAP wrote: Black was never really in any trouble of dying. At any point after he could connect by playing E18.To follow up on this, the problem is assuming that you attack to kill. Most of the things you should attack are not killable with decent play. You need to get something else out of the attack besides playing forcing moves for the sake of forcing. But seeing as Joel is playing 12 kyus decent play is rather unlikely  
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Sun May 31, 2015 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Bill Spight wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: So would it be correct to say that whenever you attack stone, you should plan for it to live? No. You should start out attacking to kill. Often you will not, but if you don't learn to kill, you won't learn to attack. One of the big keys to attacking is having strong groups to attack with. As you set out to attack a group, take inventory of weaknesses that might exist in your own groups. If there is a weakness that can be exploited for easy life, maybe you should protect that weakness before attacking. You might even find a way to protect in sente. There are times when you should definitely go for the kill. There are times when you definitely should not. It can be hard to tell the difference between them. A question that might help: If I try to kill and fail, how will I fare? If going for the kill leads the attacked group straight through the heart of your potential territory, it is a dangerous move, because if you fail, you might end up with very little. I still make the wrong decision quite often when attacking. I have lost several won games recently because I insist on capturing a 40 stone group and make one small error that lets the group live and cuts me to pieces. Capturing large groups is risky business, but it is a ton of fun when it works. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun May 31, 2015 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
DJLLAP wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: So would it be correct to say that whenever you attack stone, you should plan for it to live? No. You should start out attacking to kill. Often you will not, but if you don't learn to kill, you won't learn to attack. One of the big keys to attacking is having strong groups to attack with. As you set out to attack a group, take inventory of weaknesses that might exist in your own groups. If there is a weakness that can be exploited for easy life, maybe you should protect that weakness before attacking. You might even find a way to protect in sente. Excellent advice. See viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11896 Quote: I have lost several won games recently because I insist on capturing a 40 stone group and make one small error that lets the group live and cuts me to pieces. Capturing large groups is risky business, but it is a ton of fun when it works. There is a proverb that says that large groups never die. That's not true, OC, but because they seldom die, it is seldom a good idea to attack a large group. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: So would it be correct to say that whenever you attack stone, you should plan for it to live? Well, there are times when you need to kill because you'd be behind if you don't. Also, when attacking, you should generally have a plan for how to kill if your opponent tenukis for something less important. And if your opponent makes a mistake, you should kill. But you should also have a broader goal that you will accomplish even if you don't kill. Something like "turn this area into territory" or "build strength in the center so I can use it as backup to invade this weak point". |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Bill Spight wrote: There is a proverb that says that large groups never die. That's not true, OC, but because they seldom die, it is seldom a good idea to attack a large group. I take issue with this. Because "large groups never die" (of course 'never' is a simplification/exaggeration/lie for effect, as often the case in proverbs), attack to kill is seldom good. But attacking large groups for profit is fine and common. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Uberdude wrote: Bill Spight wrote: There is a proverb that says that large groups never die. That's not true, OC, but because they seldom die, it is seldom a good idea to attack a large group. I take issue with this. Because "large groups never die" (of course 'never' is a simplification/exaggeration/lie for effect, as often the case in proverbs), attack to kill is seldom good. But attacking large groups for profit is fine and common. This is all in the context of my advice to DDKs to attack to kill in order to learn how to kill. In this game in particular, except for the initial pincer, White waited until the Black group in the top left got big before attacking it. In the meantime White failed to attack the weak two stone group in the bottom right. So, yes, attacking a large group out of the blue is seldom a good idea. (If you attack a group and it becomes large during the attack, that does not mean that you abandon the attack, OC.) It also strikes me that we may be using the term, "attack", somewhat differently. I often use terms like "pressure", "hinder", "aim at", "push around", where others might say "attack". For instance, a 1 point sente may threaten the life of a large group, but I do not think of that as an attack. |
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| Author: | Polama [ Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
On when to try to kill, ideally you ask something like this set of questions.
Can I kill it? (am I able to confidently read out the death of the group?) If not, what moves would let me kill it? How can I shape the game so that those moves accomplish other things? If it's unclear whether I can kill, can I profit from forcing the group to live? If so, am I at least close to even with my opponent afterwards? (if not, you'll probably have to kill.) If it's a close game if I allow the group to live while taking simple profit, how much would I lose if I do go all out but fail to kill? Are there opportunities for ko's on the board? At what point in the attack could I tenuki with the maximum ko threats? Is this the right time to attack? Are there other, more urgent things to address? If I tenuki, and my opponent reinforces this group, and I get another move elsewhere, are those two moves enough to ensure a win? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
You missed out the most important question: Is this a rematch where I lost the first game? Yes => Kill. 
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A sad escape. |
Out of curiosity I checked Sakata's book, Ishi no Semekata (How to Attack). OC, Sakata's selection of examples is not random, but they do reflect what he meant by "attack". I decided beforehand to leave out the examples in the last chapter, How to kill, because I thought that it might be biased against large groups. There are 22 examples in the first two chapters, which are about attacking single groups. There are 18 examples in the next two chapters, which are about attacking more than one group, leaning attacks and splitting (I prefer to say twining) attacks. I figured that counting the largest groups in multiple group attacks was fair. What is a large group is not all that clear. Stone count is an indication, as is how spread out the group is. There were a number medium sized groups with 10 - 13 stones that I did not consider large, but others might consider at least some of them to be large. Two of these were in the 22 examples in the first two chapters. I decided to give the benefit of the doubt to one of those and counted it as large. One out of 22 fits with my sense that attacking large groups is seldom indicated. The 18 examples of multiple attacks contained two with large groups, one with 19 stones and one with 15 stones. There were 5 examples with medium sized groups, and I decided to give the benefit of the doubt to two of those and count them as large. Four out of 18 attacks involving largish groups does not fit my sense of seldom. So now I would say this: You should seldom attack largish groups, unless you can also attack another group at the same time. The dual attack makes the attack on the largish group more potent. 
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