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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #41 Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:02 am 
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Hi,
I've been stuck at 9 kyu for 8 months, and I only just broke the 8 kyu barrier.

I've studied opening theory, but maybe I became good at that, but too weak at everything else.
So I tried to solve Tsumegos, but I didn't seem to be very good at that. Maybe my book was too difficult.
So I tried to improve my reading, but it seemed to have no effect.

Eventually, things got better. Difficult to know exactly how. Maybe all these efforts combined eventually built up and gave something...

But there is a little something that might have unlocked my understanding : one day, I was playing my daily KGS game, and the automatch found me a 5 kyu opponent (I set the automatch to play only players + or - 4 kyus from my level). I must have been 8 kyu at the time, so I got 3 stones.

First move of white : one intersection in diagonal from the tengen !
I ignore it and take the fourth corner.
Second move of white, somewhere on the 5 or 6th line !

And the game went on... and white eventually won... and he reviewed my game. Besides the opening, his moves were perfectly logical, except that he just didn't seem to care about taking the corners or the edges. I had the feeling that I was playing a 1+ dan player just toying with a kgs account to try weird openings.

And this game review made me understand a lot of things about the "direction of play". I already knew the theoretical principles because I read them in books, but to see them applied completely outside any traditionnal fuseki, above the 4th line of the goban, made me "feel" them, as if I was understanding them for the first time.
Maybe it was because I was seeing them applied alone, without involving any extra considerations such as playing the right extension, or playing on the right line, that were usually drawing all my attention and preventing me to see beyond.

So I confirm that having one's game reviewed is something good, and I'd add that having them reviewed by a really strong player is even more interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #42 Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:54 am 
Oza
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Pio2001 wrote:
Hi,
I've been stuck at 9 kyu for 8 months, and I only just broke the 8 kyu barrier.

I've studied opening theory, but maybe I became good at that, but too weak at everything else.

(...)

First move of white : one intersection in diagonal from the tengen !
I ignore it and take the fourth corner.
Second move of white, somewhere on the 5 or 6th line !

And the game went on... and white eventually won...

(...)


I'm happy you shared this epiphany and I remain puzzled that so many enthusiastic students of the game have such high hopes of studying the opening, especially fixed patterns. If you're strong at L&D or the endgame, it doesn't matter a great deal if you're strong at the opening, as long as you don't violate basic strategic concepts such as cutting and connecting, avoiding to be sealed in or playing away from strong stones, and likewise play good technnique like a hane against an attachment. No disasters will happen, you can fully concentrate on the basics and most importantly you will not delude yourself that a winning streak is near because you just completed a book on the chinese fuseki, and neither will you feel that victory is morally yours because the opponent plays an unusual opening.

I was cured from this disease early in my go career, when Pierre Colmez 5d played his final game in the Brussels tournament against Guo Juan and placed his first 4 stones on 7-7. While everybody was chuckling, Guo concentrated very hard, since she was aware of the danger to overestimate the advantage of conventional play and also these 4 stones where already "thick" in some way.

Enjoy real go!

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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #43 Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:32 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
I remain puzzled that so many enthusiastic students of the game have such high hopes of studying the opening,


One of the reasons is that very often, in real life, when good players comments my games, they focus on the opening, and then conclude with a "no need to go further"... maybe because they can't remember the next moves :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #44 Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:50 pm 
Oza
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Pio2001 wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
I remain puzzled that so many enthusiastic students of the game have such high hopes of studying the opening,


One of the reasons is that very often, in real life, when good players comments my games, they focus on the opening, and then conclude with a "no need to go further"... maybe because they can't remember the next moves :mrgreen:


They may be better players then but they don't know why :)

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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #45 Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:33 pm 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Hi,
I've been stuck at 9 kyu for 8 months, and I only just broke the 8 kyu barrier.

I've studied opening theory, but maybe I became good at that, but too weak at everything else.
So I tried to solve Tsumegos, but I didn't seem to be very good at that. Maybe my book was too difficult.
So I tried to improve my reading, but it seemed to have no effect.

Eventually, things got better. Difficult to know exactly how. Maybe all these efforts combined eventually built up and gave something...

But there is a little something that might have unlocked my understanding : one day, I was playing my daily KGS game, and the automatch found me a 5 kyu opponent (I set the automatch to play only players + or - 4 kyus from my level). I must have been 8 kyu at the time, so I got 3 stones.

First move of white : one intersection in diagonal from the tengen !
I ignore it and take the fourth corner.
Second move of white, somewhere on the 5 or 6th line !

And the game went on... and white eventually won... and he reviewed my game. Besides the opening, his moves were perfectly logical, except that he just didn't seem to care about taking the corners or the edges. I had the feeling that I was playing a 1+ dan player just toying with a kgs account to try weird openings.

And this game review made me understand a lot of things about the "direction of play". I already knew the theoretical principles because I read them in books, but to see them applied completely outside any traditionnal fuseki, above the 4th line of the goban, made me "feel" them, as if I was understanding them for the first time.
Maybe it was because I was seeing them applied alone, without involving any extra considerations such as playing the right extension, or playing on the right line, that were usually drawing all my attention and preventing me to see beyond.

So I confirm that having one's game reviewed is something good, and I'd add that having them reviewed by a really strong player is even more interesting.


That sounds like a really helpful review. Did you save the file? Would you be willing to share it? I'd like to look at it.

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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #46 Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:22 am 
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Hi, here is the game.
I have translated all the comments from french.

As you can see, my memory betrays me. It was a two stones game, not three. And White played no move above the 4th line during the opening except the first one :)

But the comment is nonetheless really interesting.



Attachments:
20150801 zwim english.sgf [9.18 KiB]
Downloaded 647 times
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Post #47 Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:57 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Pio2001,
Thank you for the translation! :)

:b14: His comments here are strange. I think your move is just fine, no problem at all.

:w15: This move seems strange. His comments here also strange.

:b18: Soft, too easy for W. Block the outside R16; force W to live small.

:b30: Completely wrong. You must extend. You must not allow W to ponnuki in sente. After you extend to M15, W connects at N17. Then you turn and close W, force him to live small in gote. His lack of comments here means he completely does not understand :b30: is a huge mistake.

:b38: Nonsense move; completely wrong. Very strange and bad habit. Just connect at Q18. His lack of comments here also means he does not understand :b38: is very bad.

:b40: Now you can see the exchange :b38: - :w39: is nonsense.
If you simply connected here on :b38: , W cannot get this good shape and result.

:b42: R4.

:b44: Very strange feeling. What are you trying to do ?
Hane outside at P3; force W to live small.

:w45: Nonsense move. W must cut R4; only move.

:b46: Good.

:b48: Nonsense move. Big mistake. You give the corner back to W. Just connect at R4.

:b52: Your move is OK; ponnuki in sente.
His variation for :b52: ( shoulder hit at J4 ) is bad. He has no idea what he is talking about.
Pio2001 wrote:
his moves were perfectly logical,
If you mean White's moves in this game, No, some of his moves are bad.

:b58: Slow. F3 direction better.

:b60: His comments here: the fight in the lower right corner:
you got a bad result there because you killed yourself with :b48: .
But he did not explain why :b48: was a big mistake.

:b64: R11.

:w65: W hits the vital point.

:b68: You can first counter and resist at N6.

:b70: Your local shape problem here is because you missed R11 with :b64: .

:b76: Basics problem. Atari on top, Q11.
Quiz: If White connects at S11, then what is your local follow-up ?

:w87: Ridiculously slow and small, almost a pass.

:b88: Good!

:b90: Soft. Big miss. Double hane o11.
Homework: Try to kill White with o11.

Up to here, :b90: , you can see all your mistakes and problems are in your basics: basic shapes, basic techniques, basic reading.
They are very important.
But his comments completely ignored all these important points.

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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #48 Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:30 am 
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Hi EdLee,
Thank you very much for your insight !

To answer your quizz for move 76 Q11 S11, black captures in T11. And if I read correctly, T11 is sente because if White ignores and Black plays S19, then S17 T18 leads to a ko, isn't it ?

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Post #49 Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:38 am 
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Pio2001 wrote:
T11 is sente because if White ignores and Black plays S19, then S17 T18 leads to a ko, isn't it ?
Hi Pio2001, if W ignores and B S19, what is the result ?

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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #50 Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:38 pm 
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Go to move 76. :D


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: EdLee
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 Post subject: Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.
Post #51 Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:24 am 
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Thanks Bill !
So T17 was the vital point from the beginning.

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