A basic strategy question.

Joelnelsonb · #1

In the diagram below, black has developed a strong double wing formation. Now, you may consider the fight in the north-west to be more urgent than anything, or maybe an approach to the south-west star point stone. Just forget about those for now. My question is about the proper implementation of black's plan for the east side of the board. I've read from multiple books that in positions like this one, black would playing slow and timid to spend more moves with something like a knight's move enclosure or a large knight's move at R13 or N17 (One of these moves would seem to fall under Bill Spights' definition of "incrementally building territory"). I'm just trying to wrap my head around the basic idea that I've seen continually reinforced that instead of marking off a territory and then directly defending it, it's better to focus on building strength in the particular area and then to attack when invaded, making profit from the fight that proceeds. I wonder if someone here can better illustrate this concept for me (and I realize that being a weaker player, I may have very well created an example in which it is a strong play for black to defend his moyo; I hope you can still get the idea of what I'm talking about).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fast forward to the this point. From what I've seen in many different professional game commentaries, white would be considered over concentrated in the top left and bottom left. However, those are all solidified points and black doesn't really have anything to show for it yet. Where does black play in a position like this one to keep from falling greatly behind (given the black formation on the right side is full of invasion points.) I feel like a play at N17 would black the strength needed to attack the two white stones. Once again, forgive me if these aren't the greatest examples to work with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DrStraw · #2

I am wondering what sequence led to this position. Could it be the following. If so, I think there is more at issue than your question because some of the black moves are not ideal and he should not have reached a position like this. It this was not the sequence then tewari would show that it is still a bad position to be in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . 0 . . 6 . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck · #3

IMHO, the only move for black is below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black is not particularly concerned about white expanding the lower left corner, for the is no single move that does this efficiently.

But black should be concerned about this play by white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this version, a huge chunk of the left and lower left are under white influence, and black will find himself on the wrong end of a fight if he tries to live almost anyplace in that region. ( And, of course, dropping the two black stones at F15/F17 would be bad for black )

schawipp · #4

Joelnelsonb wrote:

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the basic idea that I've seen continually reinforced that instead of marking off a territory and then directly defending it, it's better to focus on building strength in the particular area and then to attack when invaded, making profit from the fight that proceeds.

Imagine a search tree, where one move has a small but secure result (i.e. you get 10 points in the corner for sure) and a second move has at least two alternative followups, which are not yet secure but potentially bigger (e.g. either you could surround a few weak stones on a large scale or you invade into an opponents framework, depending on how your opponent responds). Building strength usually is such multi-purpose approach, where even the nature of the purposes may become visible many moves later. This approach needs more flexibility and may involve some complicated fighting sequences; however it should be clear that more points can be (statistically) obtained by playing the flexible way.

This especially holds during Fuseki or early mid-game, when most parts of the board are still unsettled. When the game has further progressed, the relevant parts of the board are more or less decided, and you count that you are clearly ahead, you can of course revert to the non-flexible style for the purpose of securing the lead.

ez4u · #5

"It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so."
- Artemus Ward

Quote:

In the diagram below, black has developed a strong double wing formation...

Black has a thin framework that is essentially wide open to invasion by White.

Quote:

I've read from multiple books that in positions like this one, black would playing slow and timid to spend more moves with something like a knight's move enclosure or a large knight's move...

I doubt that any textbook has advised slow, timid plays. I have to feel that you are substituting you feelings for the advice of the authors. Thus making something out of them that was never intended.

I doubt that we could find a pro game with this joseki where having played K17, Black plays elsewhere next.

Joelnelsonb · #6

As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Z . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

oren · #7

After q10, both sides are still open. It's hard to say what you actually got from it.

quantumf · #8

Joelnelsonb wrote:

As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Z . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At some point of the game, a move like Q8 may in fact be a good move. However, it is a one dimensional move that secures maybe 10 or 15 points, in gote. What you'd rather do is play it in sente. So, ideally, you want white to invade your moyo, then get to play Q8 while chasing white. Put another way, you want to force (induce) white to make you play Q8. This is far more efficient than just passively playing it early in the game for no other reason than a few points.

Bill Spight · #9

Joelnelsonb wrote:

As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Z . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is not per se a bad move. It certainly is not a bad move for a move on the right side.

The problem comes when it is played too soon. It is still a play for the opening. If we think of the opening as lasting around 40 moves, to make a very rough estimate, if this move were played at around move 25 it would probably be fine. So it is definitely an opening play, just not an early opening play. Black ends up overconcentrated.

Edit: Overconcentrated for that stage of the game.

DrStraw · **#10**

Joelnelsonb wrote:

As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Z . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It actually looks like a very bad move to me. The natural extension from each of the corners is to the hoshi at the top of bottom. Instead you have made an extension from both in the wrong direction but have not yet secured any territory on that side. This is a move to play after the extensions.

Charles Matthews · **#11**

Joelnelsonb wrote:

In the diagram below, black has developed a strong double wing formation. Now, you may consider the fight in the north-west to be more urgent than anything, or maybe an approach to the south-west star point stone. Just forget about those for now.

Err, no thanks.

Joelnelsonb wrote:

My question is about the proper implementation of black's plan for the east side of the board.

Well, what makes you think any sort of framework plan can be "implemented" by ignoring the rest of the board?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . W . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The main issue, if Black wants to build up the top right, is the white weak group made up of the circled stones. It ought to be axiomatic that the opponent's weak group on the edge of my framework is good for the framework, in that attacking plays that are also framework expansion are dual purpose. How much mileage there is in this idea depends on how weak the group is. So keep it weak.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Simple continuation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . W . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , c 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If this happens, Black is already doing quite well. Black a or Black b is satisfactory. So perhaps :w2:

is not the best idea, but White c, for example, would allow Black to cut and fight.

Joelnelsonb wrote:

Fast forward to the this point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has got distracted and has gone off-piste. Sense of direction is important.

White's stones in the lower left were placed on the third line, Black in the upper right was on the fourth line, so Black playing in the south west wasn't the urgent area.

skydyr · **#12**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe I'm too quick to sacrifice, but I think it'd be worth considering B in the position above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the second diagram, something like this feels natural, but the lower left has been an utter disaster for black, as mentioned. Black then tries to make something of his moyo while attacking white, but there could be complex fighting if white cuts.

Bill Spight · **#13**

How for Black to develop on the right side?

There are any number of ways, as the marked points indicate.

The rest of the board should be taken under consideration. :b1:

is often played in this sort of position. IMO, it is usually a bit easier to handle than the other plays.

Bill Spight · **#14**

skydyr wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe I'm too quick to sacrifice, but I think it'd be worth considering B in the position above.

Maybe, for about two seconds.

1) The watchword is divide and conquer.

2) Was the pincer, :bc:

, played with the intention of making a sacrifice?

Shaddy · **#15**

The other thing is that it's inconsistent to sacrifice F17 and F15, because F15 for D14 becomes a bad exchange.

Polama · **#16**

Joelnelsonb wrote:

As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Z . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The position bothers me more as white before the extra stone. If I ignore the right too long, black might surround it on a larger scale, making it important to invade but harder to do profitably (or even in a way that doesn't die). Or black could play the marked stone eventually, taking the points, but at a later stage where it's harder to find moves that keep up.

On the other hand, if I jump into the right black can pincer so I don't have room for a two space extension. Now I'm liable to end up with a weak group surrounded by two strong ones. Or black can just tenuki. Do I then extend to form a safe base and risk giving black sente yet again? Do I tenuki as well, and risk having played on the right in gote and still ended up pincered? There's just a lot of strategic exchanges that are possible on the right, and black mostly gets to make the choice between them.

After the 6th stone on the right by black, though, he's taken gote in exchange for points. The exchange has been made, as white I know I have to play something elsewhere to keep up. The question on the right has gone from "what's going to happen here?" to "how many points can black maintain on the right." My strategic choices as white are now much more active: do I build up thickness towards the right and invade, or do I reduce the right to get thickness towards the center?"

At some point the surrounding stones will have settled the question anyways, and it will be clearly advantageous for white to jump in. At that point the marked stone may very well be an excellent move. When we have multiple strategic options, one may become preferable and at that point your opponent will force you into the other, given the chance. But up until that point, you want to keep the options open if you can. It forces your opponent to defend against both possibilities, because if they play a more forceful defense against one, you'll just take the other.

A basic strategy question.

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