It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:49 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #21 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:45 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2508
Liked others: 1304
Was liked: 1128
Bill Spight wrote:
The main difference is that average players calculate a lot of irrelevant variations.


I've gotten a good deal better at tsumego by trying to develop the following habit: start by examining the move that experience tells me is most likely to work. It might seem like a no-brainer, but without this explicit admonition, my natural tendency is marvel at how the problem seems impossible to solve and then to start trying to prove myself right. :lol:

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.


This post by daal was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #22 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:10 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Here is a quote from David Ormerod on a topic we agree about. (From viewtopic.php?f=15&p=85964#p85964 )

gogameguru wrote:
Even worse is the school of thought that tells everyone that you don't need solutions. That's partially true when you already have a comprehensive understanding of shape and are strong enough to read a problem out completely. When I do easier problems I often don't need the solutions anymore. However, when I do hard ones, I still get some problems wrong, no matter how hard I try. When I get them wrong, I usually learn a new tesuji or something else to watch out for by looking at the solution. It finds the weaknesses in my reading and fixes them. If I didn't look at the solution I'd continue in the naive belief that I'd solved the problem and would keep using my inferior moves.

I'm going on about this because I find it very regrettable to see enthusiastic players who love Go and really want to improve work through a whole lot of problems and not start seeing results. A lot of people lose motivation and give up at that point and usually it's because they've followed the stupid advice about doing problems without solutions.

Advice that may apply to pros and very strong players (and many pros don't even agree and do look at the solutions) doesn't generalise to everyone. Would you honestly tell a 30kyu, "OK here are some practise problems, but just look at them, don't check the solutions. And these books over here, don't even read any of these, just work everything out from first principles and you'll be fine."

It's a pernicious and specious piece of advice that gets parroted from player to player and I think it's a load of rubbish.


Edit: Corrected misspelling of Ormerod. My apologies, David. :oops:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: sparky314
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #23 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:01 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1308
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Bill Spight wrote:
Here is a quote from David Omerod on a topic we agree about. (From viewtopic.php?f=15&p=85964#p85964 )
gogameguru wrote:
Even worse is the school of thought that tells everyone that you don't need solutions. ...

I am afraid that this "school of thought" goes along with a massive misunderstanding with regard to the "cirumstances".

As a matter of course, you do not need a problem's solution, if you have someone at hand who will check your own "solution" sequence.

That someone at your hand is not very likely to be available in the Western world. This implies that there is a need to also have access to a problem's solution. However, you will have to deny your desire of looking at it "too early".

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #24 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:12 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 111
Liked others: 39
Was liked: 30
Rank: ogs 6 kyu
OGS: Wulfenia
Shenoute wrote:
but trying to read them completely, i. e. every possible sequence, even silly ones.


The advice "to read out every possibly sequence" is simply a lie which is easy to check by calculation. Noone can do this.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #25 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:27 am 
Oza

Posts: 3647
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4626
I don't believe there is a "school of thought that tells everyone that you don't need solutions."

While I don't deny that there may be some people who do say that (but who?), what I think has happened is that advice "don't look at the solutions" has been transmogrified into "you don't need solutions".

Further, articles don't exist in the Oriental languages and so speakers from there are liable to say "don't look at solutions," which maybe makes the transmogrification more likely. But the proper translation is nearly always "don't look at the solutions," which clearly implies solutions are at hand and must be there for the purpose of looking at. Maybe 8 times out of 10 this is explained in a book's preface, with the real, fuller meaning being that you shouldn't look at the solutions prematurely.

That's when things get confusing because the definition of 'premature' varies according to author, and that may depend, for example, on whether he is presenting the problems as entertainment for puzzlers (a quite common genre) or as ways of imbibing useful techniques for actual play.

In the latter case, the goal is not to solve a problem so much as to acquire a technique, and whether you acquire it best by struggling over one problem or by quickly flipping through a dozen or more problems of the same type (e.g. Meijin Inseki's style) is really only something you can decide for yourself. You can't expect an author to know what type of person you are. You have to take responsibility for yourself sometimes, even in the modern, lazy, spoon-feeding internet age.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #26 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:05 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2508
Liked others: 1304
Was liked: 1128
John Fairbairn wrote:
(but who?)

I read this advice on Sensei's Library in an article about getting stronger written a dozen years ago by a strong German amateur: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BenjaminTeuber% ... meStrong#2 I can't recall having read it anywhere on paper.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #27 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:53 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
daal wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
(but who?)

I read this advice on Sensei's Library in an article about getting stronger written a dozen years ago by a strong German amateur: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BenjaminTeuber% ... meStrong#2 I can't recall having read it anywhere on paper.


The Tatsuki Tsumego pdfs also have a preface that points out the lack of solutions. He notes:
Quote:
I think we can learn more by actually solving the problem, trying all possible variations


This is not the same as saying solutions are useless or anything like that, but maybe it could be interpreted by some to support not having or utilizing a solution.

Regarding my own opinion, I think balance is required. It reminds me of my job in the office. When learning something new, on one hand, I don't want to "keep bugging" the expert in a given area. If I need to figure something out that's not in my own domain, I try to figure it out on my own.

At some point, for challenging problems, though, it can be useful to swallow my pride, gather my questions, and go chat with the domain expert. Usually, they have years of experience and context, and can explain how things work in 5 minutes.

After this, I have a fresh context on the problem, and I'm a little bit more of an expert myself.

If I go to the expert every time I have the slightest confusion, I don't understand or appreciate the complexity of the problem. But if I've gotten deep into it and start just spinning my wheels, consulting an expert can give me a fresh perspective that I can truly appreciate since I've already invested myself in the problem.

It's a balancing act.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #28 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:00 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
A bit more on looking at the solution and failure diagrams

You need to know why a mistake fails, right? :)

The idea of reinforcement is basic to learning, as is the idea of imitation. Take the latter first. Looking at the solution gives you something to imitate. Imitation can take you pretty far, but obviously is not enough for a game as difficult as go. Still, it is important, and not to make use of it by not looking at the solution would be a shame. As for reinforcement, there are two kinds, positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, related to reward and punishment, respectively. A game of go provides both: positive reinforcement if you win, negative reinforcement if you lose. One problem, OC, is the question of which among the typically more than 100 moves that you made in the game are good, and should be positively reinforced, and which are bad and should be negatively reinforced? Not always obvious. ;) For problems, solution and failure diagrams provide positive reinforcement to good moves and negative reinforcement to bad moves. Those are very important in the learning process. You ought to look, if only for the satisfaction of verifying your reading (positive reinforcement).

Now, for reinforcement to be effective, you need something to reinforce. Just looking at the solution may invoke imitation, but is useless for reinforcement. You have to work on the problem first. If you are pretty sure that you have solved the problem, then might be a good time to look at the solution and failure diagrams. But what if you are stuck? How long do you spend reading out a difficult position during a game? 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 15 minutes? 1 hour? I expect that there is a sweet spot, but I do not know what it is. As a dan player I was willing to spend 15 minutes, but I think that much time would be counter-productive for most SDKs.

Remember dithering? Going back and forth between apparently unacceptable alternatives? One problem with spending too much time on a problem is that you end up essentially dithering, by repeating unsuccessful lines of play while looking for alternative plays. If you are stuck, you are not finding those good alternatives. But by that process you are positively reinforcing bad plays. Reinforcement is not just about reward and punishment, it is about strengthening neural pathways. Every time you repeat a bad variation, you are positively reinforcing it, even if it leaves you feeling unsatisfied at the end (negative reinforcement). Positive reinforcement is more powerful than negative reinforcement. Taking too long on problems can build bad habits of thinking about go.

Chess grandmaster Kotov advised in calculating variations to calculate each branch of the game tree only once. Obviously, that avoids dithering. That advice has generally been rejected for actual play. However, as a discipline in solving problems I think that it is excellent. You choose your candidate moves at each turn and read each branch to whatever depth seems right at the time (or to the limit of your ability), and if you find no solution, you are done, and you have not reinforced any bad moves. :) Now you are ready to look at the solution and failure diagrams. :)

Edit: Having considered this some more, I see that I ignored the role of the subconscious in solving problems. If you have spent time and energy trying to solve a problem, it can help to leave it for a while for your subconscious to work on. Overnight is not a bad period of time. I have sometimes woken up with the answer to a problem or question that I had been working on.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Thofte
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #29 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:55 am 
Oza

Posts: 3647
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4626
Quote:
Now, for reinforcement to be effective, you need something to reinforce.


For me this is the key point, and it applies in all phases of the game. It is almost never treated properly in problems, and surprisingly rarely in other phases.

Meijin Inseki thought that the best way to teach tsumego skills was to show a technique and then just give a pile of problems with the same technique. Drills, in other words.

Now it may seem obvious that there should be value in hair-shirtedly tackling a problem entirely on your own, without knowing what technique is needed. Virtuous, maybe, but not necessarily valuable. There are at least two drawbacks there. One is that, even if you discover the technique, in the current literature there are not enough tightly tailored drills to practise your reinforcement.

Another difficulty is that, left to your own devices (cilices, awls or otherwise), you might not discover the technique at all. That's not rare and applies even to top pros. We all have blind spots. I was looking today at Kubomatsu's book on his famous radio game with Go Seigen when he started playing tengen in public. Part of the radio format was that each player had to give their post-mortem thoughts on their own moves. Kubomatsu had already done quite a lot of research on tengen but said he was astounded by what Go said when Go explained how he thought about White 2. Go said he first considered moves next to the tengen stone. The very idea of such moves had escaped Kubomatsu. He had been aware of Go and Kitani playing sanrensei with White 2-4-6 (it was the Shin Fuseki era) and he saw tengen as a counter to that. So moves such as an attachment against tengen were a kind of blind spot for him

One reason that playing over lots of pro games is so valuable is because of the wealth of "Eh, I didn't know you could do that!" moments.

These moments exist in tsumego, too, and it seems like a useful shortcut to be shown the possibilities first. Why reinvent the wheel before you learn to drive?

Another argument against the "read it out to the bitter end even if you can't" school is that even pros can't. Readers of my Gateway to All Marvels (Gengen Gokyo) will have noticed how often standard solutions have been promulgated by pros for decades or even centuries only for someone like Go Seigen to come along and point out a fatal flaw. Reading is important, but it seems much more valuable if you want to practise your reading of English literature to read mostly within your comfort zone (reinforcement) backed up with a dictionary which you consult for new words (and then use: imitation), rather than try work out what they might mean. And it's certainly a lot better than practising English by trying to decipher Linear B (or parts of Igo Hatsuyoron in the case of go).

Unless of course you really like doing puzzles. Even then, puzzles and playing life and death positions in actual go are two separate activities really, and it would be good to stress that more often.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 4 people: Bill Spight, ez4u, Koosh, Richard Hunter
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #30 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:19 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
How long do you spend reading out a difficult position during a game? 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 15 minutes? 1 hour? I expect that there is a sweet spot, but I do not know what it is. As a dan player I was willing to spend 15 minutes, but I think that much time would be counter-productive for most SDKs.



Perhaps the sweet spot is to spend as long as possible until you start to dither.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #31 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:38 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
A bit on the second skill, choosing candidate plays

In general, it seems to me that a major flaw among SDKs is never even considering the right play. You can calculate as many variations as you want, but if you don't make the right play to start with, none of them will be right.

OTOH, the main thing in choosing candidate plays is to eliminate bad plays. Otherwise, the game tree becomes too large, and you end up calculating too many irrelevant variations. But doing so risks eliminating the best move. This is a dilemma that amateurs face.

IMO, the best thing is to learn what good candidate moves look like, and doing problems is not the best way to do that. Imitation is. :)

John Fairbairn wrote:
One reason that playing over lots of pro games is so valuable is because of the wealth of "Eh, I didn't know you could do that!" moments.

Indeed. :)

You can also learn what good play looks like from books that demonstrate and explain good play.

It is also possible to combine approaches.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Meijin Inseki thought that the best way to teach tsumego skills was to show a technique and then just give a pile of problems with the same technique. Drills, in other words.


From what I have seen of Segoe's Tsumego Dictionary, he seems to adopt that approach. All of the problems that I saw featured the eye stealing tesuji.

Also, even though I have only seen parts of the book, may I recommend Redecker's Tsumego Strategy? (See viewtopic.php?f=57&t=13854 )

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #32 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:44 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Training techniques is insufficient for the ca. half of the tactical problems for which there is no technique or none is relevant. Then one must apply general reading methods, starting with Regular Reading, which avoids much negative reinforcement.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #33 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:00 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1590
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Bill Spight wrote:
Chess grandmaster Kotov advised in calculating variations to calculate each branch of the game tree only once. Obviously, that avoids dithering. That advice has generally been rejected for actual play. However, as a discipline in solving problems I think that it is excellent. You choose your candidate moves at each turn and read each branch to whatever depth seems right at the time (or to the limit of your ability), and if you find no solution, you are done, and you have not reinforced any bad moves. :) Now you are ready to look at the solution and failure diagrams. :)

It's amazing how many times I have been stuck for ten minutes on a tsumego problem, then say "OK, some move has to work, let me just try all of them in turn", and the problem is solved within the next two minutes.

When I play chess and I lose focus during my opponent's turn, or if I am totally stuck during my own turn, I sometimes quickly look at every single legal move, not even evaluating it, just acknowledging that it exists. It often turns up interesting ideas and possibilities. Of course, this is a little more time-consuming in a go game :)


This post by dfan was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #34 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:08 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1590
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
John Fairbairn wrote:
Meijin Inseki thought that the best way to teach tsumego skills was to show a technique and then just give a pile of problems with the same technique. Drills, in other words.

I picked up a nice little Japanese book (though I think it might have been translated from Korean) like this the last time I was at Kinokuniya in New York. It focuses on very simple capturing race situations and there is a chapter in which every answer features a descent to an edge, a chapter in which every answer features a diagonal descent to the edge, etc. Most people would probably consider the problems 10k+ level but I like them since at 3-4k I want to learn to be able to see the right move instantly in a game (or, even better, in a variation). I think they will be great for my flashcards. I don't have the book at hand but I'll post the ISBN later.

The Jump Level Up books are also like this. One nice thing is that when you see the same technique a dozen times in a row you start to give a name to it (e.g., "capturing 3 makes one eye").

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #35 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:41 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 12
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 2
Rank: Tygem 8D
"10 problems a day" is quite unspecific. I usually start my day by doing 10 problems, but it only takes me a few minutes. weiqiok.com has 4 daily problems and Tsumego Pro has 6. Most of them I solve at a glance, the hard ones might take me up to a minute. So, how much time are you spending on problems?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #36 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:34 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 474
Liked others: 120
Was liked: 157
Rank: igs 4d+
swannod wrote:
I disagree about reading silly lines. To me doing problems are about finding the opponent's *best* counter. A move looks like it works but no it doesn't. In my experience when I misread a simple problem in my game it boils down to I choose a move that looks good on the surface but I didn't find the counter. Or a I choose move that works but I didn't read out what happens when the opponent plays the best counter leading to a mistake.

This is already a ton of work and you have to do this under time pressure. Reading out unlikely lines doesn't seem useful to me (unless your reading says none of the seemingly likely lines are working)

Gotraskhalana wrote:
The advice "to read out every possibly sequence" is simply a lie which is easy to check by calculation. Noone can do this.

There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding. This thread is about doing tsumegos, so I advocated reading completely a problem while doing easy tsumegos. I don't see how "time pressure" and "noone can do this" applies here.

One benefit I personally noticed is that in actual games, even if complete reading is not possible (nor desirable), I now read more candidate moves, not just in tsumego situations but also in middle game fights for instance. In other words, I think that forcing myself to read everything, WHEN PRACTICING EASY LIFE-AND-DEATH PROBLEMS, created the habit to instinctively look for more possibilities in actual games. This seems to be a good solution to the problem swannod describes so I don't really understand the flak here.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #37 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:02 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 418
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 83
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
KGS: Pio2001
Reading the right sequence completely until the end is not the same thing as reading every possible sequence.
The former is necessary to understand the solution of the problem, not just guessing right for this time. The later is impossible, there are thousands of legal sequences from any local position.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #38 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:50 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 163
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 32
I am always puzzled when people talk about the right way to do tsumego. Usually, different approaches lead to different benefits (It was the same when studying arpeggios on the piano).

There are tsumego and tsumego. I am not even talking about difficulty or the pre- or absence of solutions. There are tsumegos on paper, in apps that anwer moves, on a board, from a selection that drills a skill, from a selection that conveys many different ideas, tsumegos whose hard move is number 3, tsumegos that go deep and those that go broad, etc.

And there are different approaches: how fast, how deep, when do you give up, what do you do with the solution, what kind of help do you use

Change is spice. I try to rotate approaches. The question "what is the most efficient way to improve ones game by doing tsumego?" should only concern those who want to improve fast. I like the scenic route as long as I am enjoying it. When doing arpeggios, the scenic route might not be the quickest, but is the one that's gonna pay off in the future. I am not sure about tsumego, but I'm probably still hoping deep inside..

For many, the idea of doing tsumego probably has got nothing to do with tsumego but with getting better at visualising sequences. And I assume, me being no different, many usually will go to the next problem once they looked up the solution. So, after failure and checking the solultion, I like the approach of turning back the page, and reading it out again. Can I read it out now? Why was it difficult? Is there a common shape problem lurking? Was there a blind spot? How many refutations are sensible and do I have them covered?

_________________
If something sank it might be a treasure. And 2kyu advice is not necessarily Dan repertoire..


This post by bayu was liked by 2 people: joellercoaster, Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #39 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:03 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1590
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
dfan wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
Meijin Inseki thought that the best way to teach tsumego skills was to show a technique and then just give a pile of problems with the same technique. Drills, in other words.

I picked up a nice little Japanese book (though I think it might have been translated from Korean) like this the last time I was at Kinokuniya in New York. It focuses on very simple capturing race situations and there is a chapter in which every answer features a descent to an edge, a chapter in which every answer features a diagonal descent to the edge, etc. Most people would probably consider the problems 10k+ level but I like them since at 3-4k I want to learn to be able to see the right move instantly in a game (or, even better, in a variation). I think they will be great for my flashcards. I don't have the book at hand but I'll post the ISBN later.

It's 978-4-488-00069-1.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Go problems don't bring any result?
Post #40 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:44 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
bayu, there are many ways of studying tsumego but only certain general methods can solve those problems for which all more specialised methods fail. Hence every way of studying must include at least one generally applicable method and acquiring the skill to apply it.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gennan and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group