Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

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BlindGroup
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Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by BlindGroup »

I just played a game in which my opponent played the marked stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O , X . . O . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O . . . . O . X . O X . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
For most non-joseki moves, black can usually build upward influence by threatening to connect back to the approach stone. The white column is deceptively weak given the position of the approach stone. Along these lines, the best my opponent and I could come up with is the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 7 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 2 5 . |
$$ | O . O , X . . O . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O . . . . O . X . O X . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Continuing as follows and finishing with the marked stone as move 11:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . 4 1 X O X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X O X . |
$$ | O . O , X . . O . , . . 0 . 3 O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O . . . . O 7 X . O X . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Is this the right idea or is there a simpler way to address this?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by Bill Spight »

The counter hane is OK. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 3 . . |
$$ | O . O , X . . O . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O . . . . O . X . O X . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This is joseki-ish.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | O . O , X . . O . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O . . . . O . X . O X . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 W 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
If :w2: hanes, just go ahead and take :wc:. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Simple and strong
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | O . O , X . . O . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . O . . . . O . X . O X . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:b1: is simple and strong. If :w2: Black can hane. Or, depending on circumstances, go back to the counter-hane on the 2-2. :)
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mhlepore
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by mhlepore »

Hi - according to eidogo.com, the move in question is not a non-joseki move. It can be played, and according to the website, represents a "change in direction."

Moreover, black's hane at 3 seems like an overplay, and it doesn't seem unreasonable for white to fight as you did. (after the turn of black 1 in your last diagram, did you consider double hane with 2?)
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BlindGroup
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by BlindGroup »

@Bill Spight and @mhlepore, thank you. These are very helpful!
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Uberdude
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by Uberdude »

As a rule of thumb, I prefer to answer the corner hane* with extend out first, to stop him playing hane at head of two there. To do so it's important to know the upcoming shape tesuji if black resists and extends in the corner as explained a previous time this same question was asked here: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =15&t=8589.

* which as mhlepore says is better to think of as an (unusual) joseki variation, rather than outright non-joseki or bad move. The kind of position it could be good is when white wants to maximise the territory on the lower side (doesn't like opponent getting sente hane-connect there) and/or doesn't want future shenanigans with the approach stone aji, and doesn't mind black getting more on the right side in exchange.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by Bill Spight »

In their books on modern josekis, Rui and Jiang say that the ancient 4-4 josekis may not hold up, because they were based on handicap games, where Black might be satisfied with a locally inferior play if it increased her chances of winning*, and where White might make overplays that were not punished. Ishida Yoshio probably had the same thing in mind when he said, back in the 1970s, that there were no 4-4 josekis.

The second line hane now seems rare in professional play, and maybe it is best considered not joseki, but situational. That is why I called one variation joseki-ish. :)

*For those who don't think that humans think in terms of probabilities. ;)
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— Winona Adkins

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BlindGroup
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by BlindGroup »

Uberdude wrote:As a rule of thumb, I prefer to answer the corner hane* with extend out first, to stop him playing hane at head of two there. To do so it's important to know the upcoming shape tesuji if black resists and extends in the corner as explained a previous time this same question was asked here: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =15&t=8589.
Thank you. That earlier post is indeed right on point.

Follow up question if anyone has time to answer. I see the advantage of extending on the third line as Uberdude suggests, but is being double haned that bad?

Starting from this position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The following seems like a logical continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This seems good for white to me because the cutting white stone is separating two week groups of black stones. I haven't played out too many variations, but so far, black's attempts to keep both alive seem to work out well for white. Am I missing something or is this also a playable option?
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Schachus
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by Schachus »

BlindGroup wrote:
Uberdude wrote:As a rule of thumb, I prefer to answer the corner hane* with extend out first, to stop him playing hane at head of two there. To do so it's important to know the upcoming shape tesuji if black resists and extends in the corner as explained a previous time this same question was asked here: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =15&t=8589.
Thank you. That earlier post is indeed right on point.

Follow up question if anyone has time to answer. I see the advantage of extending on the third line as Uberdude suggests, but is being double haned that bad?

Starting from this position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The following seems like a logical continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This seems good for white to me because the cutting white stone is separating two week groups of black stones. I haven't played out too many variations, but so far, black's attempts to keep both alive seem to work out well for white. Am I missing something or is this also a playable option?
No it is not that bad(in my harmless opinion), to see that, you can also use tewari:
if we order the moves like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
then 1 was a well-known joseki mistake and white 2 one of the correct punshiment moves(descent at 3 being the other). The black play at 3 achieves nothing and is correctly answered by 4. Hence this cannot be bad for white. Edit: actually, in that punishment(usally with 3 at 5 and 4 at 3, 5 at 7), white is supposed to clamp at b rather than cut at a, so maybe you can look at that here as well.
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Uberdude
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by Uberdude »

BlindGroup wrote: Follow up question if anyone has time to answer. I see the advantage of extending on the third line as Uberdude suggests, but is being double haned that bad?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This seems good for white to me because the cutting white stone is separating two week groups of black stones. I haven't played out too many variations, but so far, black's attempts to keep both alive seem to work out well for white. Am I missing something or is this also a playable option?
Generally speaking, white should be good in that fight, so I don't worry. As Schachus points out, clamp as well as cut is another choice for 5; the point being if black resists by descending then white cuts and the fight is probably easier than direct cut, but black can compromise with connect and then he made a bad push (which is certainly aji keshi and bad, but maybe white lets black off the hook from an even worse for black fight, but it's complicated).

However, maybe black realises the error of his ways and connects for 2. This is similar to the outside hane first joseki mistake, with white punishing with hane at 1 and then connecting out at 3 (which is better than descending at marked B stone and connecting at 1, black can't seal the centre so thickly at a, see my previous posts on this variation), with black making slightly bad exchange of the marked stone too. So this is locally good for white, who connected up to the approach stone that black pincered so probably black wanted to attack it. However, black can switch to the right side with 4 (or make some loose wall move), and my proposed nobi prevents black getting the right side. So it depends if a variation like below makes you sad globally; which is more important: right side or bottom side?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . a . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 B W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by BlindGroup »

Uberdude wrote:So it depends if a variation like below makes you sad globally; which is more important: right side or bottom side?
Thank you for clarifying. This definitely makes it much more clear that this should be considered a variation rather than a mistake.

When you say "see my previous posts on this variation", how can I find those? I'm having a hard time figuring out how to search for existing threads on a given variation.
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Re: Best way to answer this non-joseki move?

Post by Uberdude »

BlindGroup wrote:When you say "see my previous posts on this variation", how can I find those? I'm having a hard time figuring out how to search for existing threads on a given variation.
L19 pattern search would be cool, but until then text search with author and a few wisely chosen keywords (which helps if you wrote them so can recall!) will have to do:

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/search ... mit=Search

4th result was (now 5th since this post): http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... ly#p161730
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