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Offline Lamp
 Post subject: Interesting game
Post #1 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Below is an interesting game that I played with a friend (I played black in this game). I'm posting it for a couple reasons. One, because it's probably the strongest game I've ever played. I know that's not saying much considering I'm just 9k, but this was against a friend who is 3k on KGS and I "basically" beat him in an even game. I say "basically" because I actually lost, but I lost purely on pressure. I knew i had the game in the bag, and I blew it because I was basically nervous, and missed an extremely obvious move that would have easily won the game. I've played this person over 50 times and I get crushed every single time, so the pressure just got to me. :( See move 149 for this fatal blunder.

Anyway, the second reason is because the game contained two nice tesuji, the second of which was extremely devastating, and the first move was in the least obvious place you'd ever think to look. In fact, when I played it, my opponent literally guffawed out loud thinking I had just made a completely ridiculous move, but he was in for a surprise :)

Jump to moves 52 and 122 and see if you can find black's tesuji. Or if you can find any better responses as white for either of them.




General comments about other parts of the game are always appreciated, but mostly I just wanted to post show off these 2 tesuji :)


Attachments:
2012-09-12b.sgf [1 KiB]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #2 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:19 am 
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Offline Lamp
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #3 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:03 am 
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Ive never heard of the eye-bleeding tesuji and im having trouble seeing the common theme in 3 cases where you marked it. Any chance you could demonstrate with a minimal diagram? Google turns up nothing.

Btw, after 123, does white have any way to keep from losing the center? (assume black plays correctly, which i did not at 149)
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Offline p2501
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #4 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:13 am 
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Eyebleeding tesuji is not a real name, it implies that the shape is so bad, that his eyes are bleeding.

The marked positions are mostly where the stones of the player who is seperated have very low efficiency and bad shape (in huge contrast to the other players stones).
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Offline EdLee
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Post #5 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:28 am 
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Lamp, please see
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SqueezingOutTheToothpaste
and related articles.
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Offline flOvermind
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #6 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:37 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . Y . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X Y a W . . X . . . |
$$ . . . O W . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]

The circled white stones can not be cut. The triangled black stones can not be cut. So what does 'a' do, besides making an empty triangle?

Compare these two diagrams:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X X B O . . X . . . |
$$ . . O O O a . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X X C O . . X . . . |
$$ . . O O O a . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------[/go]

Does the circled stone make any difference? Since the cut at 'a' doesn't work, no.

Now compare these two diagrams:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X X 1 O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Huge difference!

Locally, the white stones are a lot weaker in the second diagram, and globally, black has a quite solid framework on the lower left side.
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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #7 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:51 am 
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Lamp wrote:
Ive never heard of the eye-bleeding tesuji and im having trouble seeing the common theme in 3 cases where you marked it. Any chance you could demonstrate with a minimal diagram? Google turns up nothing.

Btw, after 123, does white have any way to keep from losing the center? (assume black plays correctly, which i did not at 149)


Well obviously, white could play the atari at G11 on move 124, and if black responds he can then capture at H9. So black will have to ignore the atari and play H9 himself to capture the white stones on the left while allowing the center group to escape.

Also, W128 should be at E11, not F11, after which there are various complications. See if you can work them out :)
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Offline Lamp
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #8 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:26 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Lamp wrote:
Ive never heard of the eye-bleeding tesuji and im having trouble seeing the common theme in 3 cases where you marked it. Any chance you could demonstrate with a minimal diagram? Google turns up nothing.

Btw, after 123, does white have any way to keep from losing the center? (assume black plays correctly, which i did not at 149)


Well obviously, white could play the atari at G11 on move 124, and if black responds he can then capture at H9. So black will have to ignore the atari and play H9 himself to capture the white stones on the left while allowing the center group to escape.


I'm not convinced this works. If white plays the point you suggested after black plays the triangled move, suppose black proceeded from 2 as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X . . O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O O X X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 2 X X O . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 O O O X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . X O O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X Y 3 X 4 . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . X O O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X O . X . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X X X X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O O O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


4 is necessary or white can immediately make a second eye on the next move. But it is also sente otherwise black will cut off the stones on the bottom.

So at this point white's center has only 1 eye, and I think it will be difficult / impossible to make a second eye. For example, it might proceed as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X . . O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O O X X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . X O O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X O X Y 1 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O 5 O . X O O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 . 4 X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . X O O O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X O . X . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X X X X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O O O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



or like this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X . . O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O O X X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . X O O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X O X Y 1 . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O 5 O . X O O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 4 X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . X O O O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . X . . . . X O . X . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X X X X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O O O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thoughts?


Last edited by Lamp on Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #9 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:44 pm 
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It looks to me like black has a pretty glaring weakness he needs to fix, though. Look for it.

Hint:
It's a cut.
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Offline Lamp
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #10 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:50 pm 
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jts wrote:
It looks to me like black has a pretty glaring weakness he needs to fix, though. Look for it.

Hint:
It's a cut.


I presume you're talking about the 3 stones in the center, but at the moment they appear safe.

Edit: All diagrams above had a black stone missing (verify by comparing against the SGF at the top). I have circled it and corrected it in the below diagram. Also will go to the post above and correct those diagrams as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X . . O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O O X X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . X O O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X O X X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . X O O X . O B . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . X O X X 1 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X O . X . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X X X X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O O O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #11 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:02 pm 
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That makes a bit of difference! But if those black stones are alive, why not sac the tail? It's just 8 points, not a matter of l&d.
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Offline Lamp
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #12 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:15 pm 
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jts wrote:
That makes a bit of difference! But if those black stones are alive, why not sac the tail? It's just 8 points, not a matter of l&d.


Well I guess it's more like 15 since the captures count double. I have more difficulty reading that out to see if it would give white enough time to live, so I'm going to play it out below. Black still has a little trick up his sleeve in that he can threaten to connect with the 2 dead black stones FIRST, which will eat up white's eye space in sente and then threaten to cut off the 7 stones at the bottom after that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X . . O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O O X X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . X O O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X O X 3 . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O O 2 O . X O O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 1 X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X O . X . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X X X X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O O O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


it becomes too hard of a problem for me after move 3 above, I can't figure out what white's best move is, or how to respond to it as black. 4 might not even be correct as white but there's too many variations for me :(

Maybe black could even play something on the first line here, idk.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #13 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Out of curiousity, of all the moves you considered, what made you pick :w4: in the final diagram?

_________________
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Offline Lamp
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #14 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
Out of curiousity, of all the moves you considered, what made you pick :w4: in the final diagram?


I felt like it made the white group stronger (removes the ability for black to threaten a cut by playing at 4 instead) while simultaneously threatening to connect underneath to the white stone above, as well as making thickness near the edge, so maybe it would be easier to make an eye along the edge.

Note: I didn't read all the following lines out before choosing :w4: in the above diagram, I just played it on instinct.

But after playing with it a little, if black responds by pushing out, then white has this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . X X X X O . X O
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O X X
$$ | . . O X X O O . X O O O
$$ | . 1 X X O X X O X X . .
$$ | . . O O O O O . X O O X
$$ | . . O . . X X . X O X X
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O
$$ | . 2 . . . . X . . . . X
$$ | . . X . . X O X X X X X
$$ | . . . . X . O X O O O O[/go]



If black does something else though, then white connects underneath. I'm not sure if black has stronger responses, but I came up with the following living sequence for white.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . X X X X O . X O
$$ | . a 8 . b . O O O O X X
$$ | . 3 O X X O O . X O O O
$$ | 6 2 X X O X X O X X . .
$$ | 5 . O O O O O . X O O X
$$ | 7 4 O . . X X . X O X X
$$ | . 1 . . . . . X O O O O
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . X
$$ | . . X . . X O X X X X X
$$ | . . . . X . O X O O O O[/go]


Because of the threat of white b, white will be able to live with a.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #15 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Hi Lamp, I enjoyed replaying your game. I made some variations around the moves you mentioned and the claims you made about it. Especially I like my variation at 142. Maybe the others are nonsense.


Attachments:
2012-09-12c.sgf [1.93 KiB]
Downloaded 379 times
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Offline Lamp
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #16 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:58 pm 
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After your variation at 142, black chooses 2. After white 148, black plays D13. I think black will live there.

If black chooses 1 at 142, then after white 144 black plays B13. Then black has miai at B12 and B15 for a second eye (i think)


For the variation at move 53, after 62 I would have played O4, which should kill the 3 white stones, and maybe the other group as well.

It's possible I'm missing the counters, I'm always bad at checking every possible response.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: Interesting game
Post #17 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Lamp wrote:
After your variation at 142, black chooses 2. After white 148, black plays D13. I think black will live there.

If black chooses 1 at 142, then after white 144 black plays B13. Then black has miai at B12 and B15 for a second eye (i think)
Until here correct ( I think). I will sleep over it.

Lamp wrote:
For the variation at move 53, after 62 I would have played O4, which should kill the 3 white stones, and maybe the other group as well. ..........

b63@O4 -> w64@O5, b65@P4, w66@Q2 and O2 dies. But b gets a nice squeeze at P7. So maybe w's result in the game is better.
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