Opening theory - shows what we know!

topazg · #1

I saw an interesting game today played between high level players. Everyone knows contact plays are mostly wrong in the opening right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 1 to 5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 5 2 . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This one would have never dawned on me - is this something anyone else here would play, and what would be your long-term goals with it?

p2501 · #2

The goal seems to be to settle :b5:

quickly.

topazg · #3

Doesn't the idea of White sealing Black into the corner with a facing 6-4 in the lower left just seem .. I dunno, unwise or something ?

Magicwand · #4

variation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B i think white is good because a seems overplay $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 2 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

variation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B painful for black.. white good. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

my assessment on the position..black attaching doesnt look good because of above white move..

i hope robert apply his theory to evaluate this joseky and prove to everyone if he has guts.

Splatted · #5

My only guess is that it forces white to commit to using :w2:

for influence. It's hard to see how white can not end up with lots of influence after playing the 6-4, but if black plays to counter that white can just take a large corner whenever she wants, so maybe it's better to remove that option early on? I guess the same reasoning could apply to a 3-3 invasion of a 4-4 stone, but I think the territory to influence balance is quite different there.

Of course, it might just have been a bad move...

snorri · #6

topazg wrote:

I saw an interesting game today played between high level players. Everyone knows contact plays are mostly wrong in the opening right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 1 to 5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x , 5 2 . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . x . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , x . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This one would have never dawned on me - is this something anyone else here would play, and what would be your long-term goals with it?

Some common ideas for black instead of :b5:

are at the points 'x'. I think the attachment is a psychological strategy. White is trying to take black out of the book by playing two 6-4 points, so maybe black thinks this will take the game out of white's book.

In any case, I don't think early contact plays are as bad as people think they are. I remember there used to be a series in Go World titled something like "bad moves, how bad are they?" and the pros would discuss how many points compensation would they take for playing a specific bad move. The results are usually surprisingly small. Players often at the pro level throw away more points in the endgame than a lot of the classic opening bad moves lose. I think in one commentary there was a quip that if people learn about that, it will be very hard to sell go books.

If you think :b5:

is bad, how many points would you want to take black in this game? For me, I think 2 points compensation and we're good to go

topazg · #7

For those interested, here's the game:

(Taken from gogameworld.com but with their excellent commentary removed - subtle plug here for their excellent site too

)

lemmata · #8

Well done, topazg. Very refreshing. Who could have guessed that "high level player" meant Lee Sedol? This ought to teach us not to speak in absolutes when talking about go.

I am curious how Gu Li would play against this. The Korean pros on Baduk TV frequently say that Gu Li is better at playing the opening than anyone else. Do you have any Gu Li vs Gan Siyang games?

topazg · #9

I'm afraid not, it's the only game of his that they have, but Gan Siyang seems to have a reputation for interesting openings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFImtHxZ ... re=related

EdLee · **#10**

lemmata wrote:

Who could have guessed that "high level player" meant Lee Sedol?
This ought to teach us not to speak in absolutes when talking about go.

Yes, but there's also a flip side to the coin.
Lee Sedol is famous (notorious?) for playing unconventional moves (Luo Xihe 9p is another one).
At their level, they can do a lot of things that we mere mortals cannot do,
because they have their own ways of thinking, and, more importantly,
they have completely mastered the fundamentals and their minds are free, so they can handle the situation.
This is one reason it's not uncommon to see amateurs, especially kyus and low dans,
blindly (or fashionably) copy pro moves without having a clue as to what they're doing.

ez4u · **#11**

topazg wrote:

For those interested, here's the game:
...
(Taken from gogameworld.com but with their excellent commentary removed - subtle plug here for their excellent site too

)

That's nice but where is the link to the commentary for us lazy old guys? Searching on Gan Siyang returned no hits and Lee Sedol returned too many! :sad:

topazg · **#12**

ez4u wrote:

topazg wrote:

For those interested, here's the game:
...
(Taken from gogameworld.com but with their excellent commentary removed - subtle plug here for their excellent site too

)

That's nice but where is the link to the commentary for us lazy old guys? Searching on Gan Siyang returned no hits and Lee Sedol returned too many! :sad:

It's a paid for service so I don't feel I can post it here - all their games have professional commentaries attached (in this case by Wang Lei), and most of which are really enjoyable to read

They're all at http://www.gogameworld.com/

ez4u · **#13**

Compare the result in the upper left in the game to the lower left in the diagram below. Black is one line higher in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Yi Se'tol - Paek Hong-seok 19th Kiseong 2008-02-19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 . . . . . , . . . 0 . O . . . | $$ | . . 5 X 2 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u · **#14**

topazg wrote:

ez4u wrote:

topazg wrote:

For those interested, here's the game:
...
(Taken from gogameworld.com but with their excellent commentary removed - subtle plug here for their excellent site too

)

That's nice but where is the link to the commentary for us lazy old guys? Searching on Gan Siyang returned no hits and Lee Sedol returned too many! :sad:

It's a paid for service so I don't feel I can post it here - all their games have professional commentaries attached (in this case by Wang Lei), and most of which are really enjoyable to read

They're all at http://www.gogameworld.com/

Ah, understood. I thought it was just my general incompetence! :blackeye:

Magicwand · **#15**

Magicwand wrote:

variation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B i think white is good because a seems overplay $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 2 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

variation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B painful for black.. white good. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

my assessment on the position..black attaching doesnt look good because of above white move..

i hope robert apply his theory to evaluate this joseky and prove to everyone if he has guts.

i dont like actual game hanne. that is why i thought above is the only variation for white.
i will be bold and say that hanne was not good for white.(i did not read any comments about this game)
let me know if the comment mentioned anything about my move.
what other answer does black have if white play as above???

lemmata · **#16**

EdLee wrote:

At their level, they can do a lot of things that we mere mortals cannot do

This is so true

But don't forget that our opponents are amateurs. What ever it is that we can do might be enough to win.

That said, I do agree that blindly copying pro moves is not very productive. For me, the pro moves are almost always too difficult to understand anyways.

topazg · **#17**

@MW: My first feeling is that C17 is ok:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also, it's a bit weird, but maybe this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 2 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a X O . 4 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Unless my reading fails again, the cut at "a" no longer seems to work for white, so Black can descend. If White plays to the corner, maybe :b5:

@

is ok? Still, some complicated stuff for poor me.

Regarding the game commentary, no nobis were addressed. The only comment was that if White hane'd the other side, Black would counter-hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#18**

this appears to be joseki because white can miai a or b
unless professionals think black is better...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 W . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

white stones in the middle will be attacked ..i dont like white

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 2 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 8 X O . 4 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 0 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Opening theory - shows what we know!

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